Forum › What is rape?

Yuri
joined May 11, 2015

I know this seems like a strange question, but I just want to clarify this question.

What's this about:

Mainly about the recently uploaded "Dreams, Reality and Rum Raisin" by Sekihara Umina. In this short story Honoka get herself drunk by some chocolate that contained alcohol. Tsubasa uses this situation to have her way with Honoka. Many of the comments on this one-shot call it "rape" or a "rapy situation" so I suggested to add the tag. Whoever checks those tag suggestions had other plans. For them it seems having your way with someone who is drunk and passed out and who can't disagree with the situation is not rape. While I personally find this disturbing and - to be honest - disgusting, I'd like to know what you think of this. And vene more I'd like to know what dynastys "rules" are for something being rape. Or are there no rules and anyone who checks the tag suggestions can just make something up?

last edited at Jul 28, 2016 10:04AM

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

Welp, getting my fireproof outfit on....

12343
joined Jan 8, 2016

Tags are not rules but guidelines

Rsz_eiji_3_-_kopie
joined Feb 16, 2015

Of course it's rape, but so many people have gross fetishes and will excuse anything. This isn't something you can have an ''opinion'' on, it's fact.

Thousand Scars
Hair_stars
joined Apr 14, 2016

I've seen some ads that said that legally it is rape to have sex with a drunk person. Even if the person isn't tottally wasted. Like, if a girl had some wine and is in her high spirits and starts making advances towards you and you just go with it... Well, according to the law, that's pretty much a rape. Even if it was consensual, the partner was still not in their right mind. I guess it also varies on the country and specific situation. There's also the difference between legal and moral sides. Like marital rape - it can be viewed as legal sex but is in fact a fucking rape. Or a drunk sex, which might legally be a rape, but if everyone's happy about it the next morning...why would it be?

12343
joined Jan 8, 2016

By the by, the more lax way of not tagging things as rape as often as it would probably count in real life, when the stories have a different focus point and good intention, is the reason we don't see 80% works uploaded here with said tag, which I find less than ideal if it comes to showing newcomers what yuri is all about. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Rsz_eiji_3_-_kopie
joined Feb 16, 2015

which I find less than ideal if it comes to showing newcomers what yuri is all about. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I remember my first time on this site, It was almost traumatizing.

Or a drunk sex, which might legally be a rape, but if everyone's happy about it the next morning...why would it be?

I agree with this, but that's a different situation and you can very much tell if that's the case.

Capture%20_2018-03-05-21-59-51~2_resized
joined Apr 28, 2016

I understand very well the importance of explicitly establishing consent for real-life sexual activities, but using the real-life, legal definition of rape as a standard to categorize fiction (especially pornography) doesn't seem like a good idea.

It'd be like calling the Star Wars movies snuff films because they show a lot of characters being killed.

last edited at Jul 28, 2016 11:59AM

Z%20ss
joined Oct 15, 2013

Its not rape if they are forced into it and like it in the end.
- Hentai logic 101

last edited at Jul 28, 2016 12:06PM

Yuri
joined May 11, 2015

I understand very well the importance of explicitly establishing consent for real-life sexual activities, but using the real-life, legal definition of rape to categorize fiction (especially pornography) doesn't seem like a good idea.

It'd be like calling the Star Wars movies snuff films because they show a lot of characters being killed.

But this would make all tags invalid since every tag is an interpretation of "real-life" definitions. And yes - if sex is not consent, it is rape. Someone above mentioned somewhat like "if the next day everyone is happy about it it's ok" - yes. it's ok for them. but it's stil rape. only that they are ok with it. In this case it's even worse, since Honoka has no memory of the thing happening to her and things of the things she unconsciously noticed as some kind of "dream" while Tsubasa does not tell her about it.

Even when reading the answers I get the feeling that for most ppl the above mentioned situation is (some form of) rape. While discussing the deletion of the "timeskip" tag it was noted that there need to be stronger rules for adding and/or removing tags. While "timeskip" is something I would call a "minor tag", rape is definitely a strong tag that would prevent people - like me - who find stories of this kind mostly disgusting to at least have a chance and avoid reading them. Therefore I suggest that there are some rules set for this tag and that the ones working on tag suggestions will be more cautious about stories and maybe read the comments before making a decision. I mean if there are like 20 comments and 18 of them (fictional example) call it rape, it somehow seems illogic to reject the tag suggestion. But whoever made the rejection, I'd actually like to hear their reasons for doing so.

(sry, my English is not the best)

Dynasty%20necromancer
joined Mar 6, 2014

Baby don't hurt me
No more

12343
joined Jan 8, 2016

Baby don't hurt me
No more

Out.

joined Oct 12, 2013

Its not rape if they are forced into it and like it in the end.
- Hentai logic 101

Just anime/manga in general. Probably at least 80% of everything has one partner resisting and saying "no" at some point. It's really not a hobby for someone who's particularly sensitive in that regard.

Thousand Scars
Hair_stars
joined Apr 14, 2016

Someone above mentioned somewhat like "if the next day everyone is happy about it it's ok" - yes. it's ok for them. but it's stil rape. only that they are ok with it.

I think I mentioned that legally it's still rape. But the thing is, this case scenario pretty much goes into the victimless crime category. Which by itself is an idiotic thing of the past and needs to be abolished. So as for myself, I wouldn't put a tag on something like this. That specific doujin that made you start the discuss, on the other hand...well, that's a different matter.

Yuu
joined Mar 28, 2015

Ultimate answer applies : If it's yuri, it's ok.

12343
joined Jan 8, 2016

Ultimate answer applies : If it's yuri, it's ok.

Nishiki%20gosu%20rori%20dark%20hair%20sm
joined Jan 11, 2015

These landmine threads keep popping up every now and then... D:

Popcorn
joined Jun 5, 2015

Someone already made a similar fuss before. They were much less civil about it though. Anyway I can understand where you are coming from. I guess it is because stuff like ignoring "no" when both characters like each other or taking advance because they can't deal with their feelings but are not ready to admit them, doesn't seems as bad as "real" rape attempt? It is something so common in doujins that if we were to tag it as rape, the tag would become kinda overused? I mean especially the situation which you described sounds like rape alright, but I guess the logic is, there are doujins that shows much more brutal and vicious rape, so they don't feel as rapey in comparison? Honestly only explanation I can think of is what was said before, sometimes it is not that bad (ignoring "no") that tagging it as rape could make most people who would still normally read and enjoy it not even give it a try? Also most of it is still a porn, that is supposed to turn you on anyway, so logic in them usually take a second sit (doesn't matter why they have sex, the point is they have sex), but then if it is a work with more plot/characters you like or something I guess it can still make you feel bad.

(It probably didn't answer anything but oh well)

joined Oct 12, 2013

I think maybe it's the difference between trigger warning and tagging for content, a la sadpanda. Sometimes you want to know ahead of time, Bad End, but if you're looking for something to fap to, it'll get pretty tedious if anything vaguely non-consensual is tagged with rape.

AbyssalScepter
Kaga
joined Apr 23, 2016

Eh, it may only depend on the person checking the tags. Honestly, everyone has their own opinions on rape. There's not much objectivity to it because people have different opinions about it. For the most part it just seems to be the "super bad tag." lol

The only requirement for rape to be objective, is when it's a situation being dealt with in court; in real life. Certain tags have objectivity, sadly rape isn't one of them. Someone might not think it's rape at all, even though there was alcohol involved. Any tags that are subjective will be invalid to some, that's simply how it is. Most people don't dispute a tag like... yuri because it's pretty objective- it's just girl-on-girl.

Your best bet would just be to blacklist or avoid any tags you find "rapey," (such as rape, or drunk) or simply just give it a shot and see the story isn't really your cup of tea. Yeah, it'd be tedious if everything that was vaguely "rapey" was tagged as rape. Although, it's also tedious to see something you didn't want to see, however it seems like you'd have to give things a read.

Oh yeah, it seems like rape tag fits stories that are just blatantly rape, just absolutely terrible situations: the receiver did not enjoy it whatsoever, they were completely against it, etc. Good thing the drunk tag's there though, because even though some people may not consider it rape- you can. \o/

last edited at Jul 28, 2016 5:06PM

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

One thing that complicates matters is authors don't necessarily know much about what constitutes rape or the ins and outs of consent itself. So while they may understand certain blatant things as rape, they may accidentally introduce rape situations without realizing it. Pretty sure that stuff like that recent TsubaHono piece where she was basically drunk to the point of being unable to consent, or Flower Picking which features a child (and thus unable to give informed consent) actually objecting but then pulling the old, moldy trope of "but she enjoyed it in the end" were not envisioned by their respective authors as "I'm going to write a rape scene", but that's what they effectively did anyway.

How this applies to the issue at hand, which is to say how tags are applied, I believe we should generally err on the side of caution. Tags are used for two main purposes, as a warning and a way to find what you're looking for. Given how stumbling upon something that hits too close to home can really ruin your day and the purpose of most of us being here is to have fun instead, I see no harm in being maybe a little more zealous than strictly necessary in the "warning" tags. It's not like people who don't mind reading that stuff would need to worry about it, they'd enjoy the applicable stories all the same. And the people who would benefit by a heads-up would appreciate it too. And they could read the comments in most cases where it's not really that bad ( She-Wolf being a good example) and make their own decision. Not seeing a down side really.

Blyat
joined Sep 12, 2012

Isn't part of Japanese culture, or at least H-culture to just say no and stop and dame all the time? Things that are perceived as "rape" here are a part of the mating ritual, so to say, there. Erring on the side of caution on this would cause almost all works involving sex to get a Rape tag.

As far as H goes I only consider it rape when 2 people are strangers/get completely forced(as in physical and not verbal objection)to have sex/ bondage or similar inability to act is involved, that sort of thing. And honestly, this consent thing has become pretty ridiculous as of late, please don't poison the chinese cartoon porn with this SJW stuff. Although the mangakas(many female!) themselves did actually deflect the SJWs recently IIRC so that's a good sign. The main point was fiction is fiction, reality is reality.

As for people who do get triggered by such really slight 'rapey' situations maybe they should change material altogether or search on an artist basis maybe.

Nezchan Moderator
Meiling%20bun%20150px
joined Jun 28, 2012

Okay, the down side is people who get really upset at warnings and make blanket statements about "triggered" people.

joined May 23, 2015

Also remember, the specific legal definition of rape can vary by country. I know there are some particular differences between Japanese law and American law on it, so it's not solely a cultural difference.

Blyat
joined Sep 12, 2012

Not upset at all, I'm actually in for making warnings on everything people are sensitive to. It's just that in this case it won't make much sense. A tag won't detract anything from the material itself so if you think it helps of course do it.

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