Forum › Posts by johnb

johnb
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joined Sep 1, 2017

I like this story, and I hate the fact that I like this story. Honestly, if you add 3 or 4 years to Jinno-san's age, take away the consent issues of Kousaka-san and Jinno-san's first time, this would be a dirty cute story about forbidden love and coming of age. I desperately want to see it that way, but the author keeps making choices to make it hard to accept it that way.

last edited at May 30, 2018 2:50AM

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Yeah. The adult seduced a virgin girl into her house and raped her, then slapped her, had sex and run away again. Even the author tried to make it look like romantical unforbidden love, in my opinion I can see only a pedophile and girl with stockholm syndrome. If the woman are man instead, the ending might be a girl get pregnant. This manga will be a shitty hentai.

Everything else aside, blaming Jinno's behavior on "Stockholm Syndrome" is pretty bizarre. She had sex with the woman once, and then neither saw her or spoke to her for days or weeks afterwards, yet continued to long for her. That's not Stockholm Syndrome. It's so far from Stockholm Syndrome that I don't even know why you'd bring that into the conversation. Was she held captive for an extended period of time? No. Did her survival depend solely on the good will of her captor? No. Did her captor offer her "rewards" (such as not being beaten) in exchange for good behavior? No. Might as well say that Jinno's behavior is due to Munchhausen syndrome by proxy for all the relevance it has.

Even calling what happened "rape" is somewhat questionable, except in that it would obviously be statutory rape as defined in many jurisdictions. Rape occurs when someone is subjected to sex against their will and without their consent. From what we saw, Jinno didn't consent (plus it's questionable whether she was even capable of giving consent, based on her age). But it seemed to be something that she did willingly, based on the fact that she was trying to get closer to Kousaka beforehand and afterwards she sought to do it again (though since we got only a few panels of the act itself, it's impossible to say for certain what her mindset was at the time).

Clearly what Kousaka did was both illegal and wrong. But when it comes to Jinno's mindset, we as readers can see into her mind and it's very obvious that she's genuinely attracted to Kousaka and desires to be with her.

There is an attraction that develops between a rape victom, and their rapist, it happens when the victom is young and naive . I saw it on one of those magazine shows, like Dateline, or 20/20. It's one of the ways pimps enslave young runaways. I don't think that's what the author was going for, though.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

So many people in this forum get way too riled up way too easily. If you don't like it then don't read it.

(Oh and the idea that people at 17.999 years old can't consent and then suddenly once you're 18 you can consent and do literally anything is utter stupidity. "Able to consent" is a spectrum that's different for every person. Some people shouldn't be consenting even at 20 years old.)

Jinno-san is 13, and she was so naive that she had no clue she even had sex. I would say she was to young to consent. Look I understand where you are coming from, with the "you don't like it don't read it" argument. The issue of whether Jinno-san was raped or not, seems a cut and dried yes, though.
I think you should cut the people complaining, a little slack on this one. There is alot of elements to this story that make people uncomfortable.

last edited at May 30, 2018 2:48AM

johnb
Killing Me! discussion 29 May 02:08
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

I'm so torn. On one hand, I have deep DEEP hatred for kissy face vampires. On the other, I have my endess love for yuri lovin in all it's forms.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

No! This is beyond violence. This is madness. ....

NO! THIS IS SPARTA!

Sorry I couldn't resist.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Come to think of it. In anime, anytime the hero trys to deal with bullies, with violence, it just leads to the bullies coming back with increasingly bigger groups of his friends. Making the hero fight an endless wave of battles, of increasing difficulty.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

People are saying that this needs the violence tag. I disagree. All of the violence, happens "off camera". We got a shot of the aftermath, that's it.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

damn, is this what they taught ichi in america?

She probably learned from the school shooters

Nah. That's straight up American ganster.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Damn! Icchan went straight up Gansta on their asses!
That's how we roll in the NYC! bitchs!

Seriously. I know that was so wrong, but it just felt so right.

last edited at May 28, 2018 1:42AM

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Can we all just go back to agreeing that this middle schooler is a meanie pants?

Yep. a meanie pants, with a matching crazy shirt.

I wouldn't call her crazy. It's understandable that a child would get messed up by abuse of any kind. My problem is that she's then emulating that abuse, and I don't want to be expected to root for a character who does that.

Unfortunately, that's a common problem, it's called the cycle of abuse. I learned about during my years of training. ( and by years of training, I mean I followed Law & Order SVU.)

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Can we all just go back to agreeing that this middle schooler is a meanie pants?

Yep. a meanie pants, with a matching crazy shirt.

last edited at May 25, 2018 6:37PM

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Enough, SomethingOrOther. If you can't be mature enough to discuss things, can't stay on topic with regard to the series being discussed, and can't even be bothered to get your facts straight about the other series you're trying to make a point about, you can stop posting in this discussion.

I will delete any further posts from you here, and those of anyone replying to you. Continued posting will result in bans of increasing length.

Sorry. It was my bad. I brought Octave up, and I didn't let it go when I saw it getting out of hand. SomethingOrOther shouldn't have all the blame.

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joined Sep 1, 2017

johnb posted:

Second Yukino's one night stand, with the creep in the cab (I know I'm not being fair to him), was less about questioning her sexuality, and more about her feeling lost and lonely. Yukino latched on to the first person who showed her kindness, just because Setsuka shut off her phone, to work, and wasn't available to comfort her.
If Yukino's affair wasn't ment to drive in the knife, the author sure went out of her way to do so. I mean, the exact moment Yukino was cheating on Setsuka, Setsuka was coming to the conclusion that she was totally in love with Yukino. Then Setsuka rushed over to Yukino's apartment, to tell her. Only to fall asleep waiting, so Setsuka could be there to witness Yukino's walk of shame. Then finally, Yukino pushes Setsuka away, out of guilt. If that's not driving home the knife, I don't know what is. The only way that scene could have been anymore heartbreaking for Setsuka, is if she would have walked in on Yukino and the guy doing it.

Wow you missed so much context in that scene. That is what happens when people got blinded the second het appears in yuri story and they are unable to see it as anything more than the worse thing ever, because of their inner rage. You called him creep and said you are unfair to him, that already shows how you treat all male characters equally, as something that shouldn't be there, just because it interfered with yuri in any way. Especially since he was actually being really nice to Yukino and he never forced her to anything. Yukino was feeling lost and lonely, but that was because she wasn't sure about her sexuality and how much Setsuko really loved her. The entire part of that manga is kinda all about it. You are entirely blaming Yukino, but it was equally Setsuko fault, if not even more. Yukino was never before attracted to a woman and she was new to idea of girls loving each other so she was totally lost and confused. Then Setsuko, the person she is supposedly going out with, told her she can try doing it with a guy if she want. Setsuko assumed Yukino will simply reject the idea, saying she loves her so of course she won't do it or something. And that is where she fucked up. Because instead, it confused Yukino a freaking lot, because she didn't expected to be told that and wasn't sure how to take it. Does that mean Setsuko doesn't love her, does she think their relationship is not that serious? So she end up not saying anything and the conversation cut. Setsuko simply forgot about it, since she wasn't serious, but she didn't realize Yukino was thinking about it entire time. And Setsuko didn't help either with how often she seemed to act distant and not care that much about their relationship. Never properly saying they are lovers etc. She wasn't aware of it, but she wasn't really showing Yukino she is serious about it. Yukino is flawed and weak character. She has low self-esteem and a lot of complexes. So put in this situation, her confidence how much their relationship was real kept growing. Getting all depressed over it she felt uneasy and when in the moment she needed it the most she couldn't reach Setsuko, she was feeling so bad, she decided to do what Setsuko told her in a spur of the moment, in order to clear her feelings. Sure, she should simply talk about her issues with Setsuko. She was told to do it, but still she probably should ask Setsuko before doing it (I'm not blaming her for not doing it though, if someone told me it is ok to do something, I wouldn't feel need to confirm it every single time). It probably would clarify Setsuko didn't really mean it and wasn't ok with it. But again that is Setsuko fault. She wasn't ok with it, yet once Yukino gave her no relpy, she never clarified. I'm fine with it, because it fit Yukino's character. She was confused and lost and wasn't sure whatever Setsuko was just playing with her temporary or not. It was important moment for both of them, but especially Setsuko learned the hard way how little affection and confirmation she was showing Yukino, to get her that insecure about their relationship.

That scene is the perfect example how things actually look in real life. People are not perfect. They make stupid mistakes, but they need to learn from them and improve. From the beginning Octave wasn't meant to be your typical fluffy and happy romance. It is more down to earth and realistic, willing to do bad things to characters, but I don't think that is a bad thing, since it fit characters and tone of the story.

I knew Yukino had a morbid curiosity, about hetersexuality, I knew that at some point, in the story she would probably experiment with it. I don't think that's what happened though. I think Yukino was hurt seeing her friend becoming a successful idol. She tried to call Setsuka, to cry on her shoulder. When she couldn't reach Setsuka, she threw herself at the first person, to show her kindness, for comfort. Afterwords, Yukino tried using Setsuka's words about trying sex with a man, to justify what she did. If Yukino truly believed that Setsuka gave her permission to try sex with a man, then why was Yukino racked with guilt about what she did for the rest of story?
It's actually kind of amazing that you actually blamed Setsuka, for that. I honestly thought that Setsuka was a saint for not kicking Yukino to the curb for that stunt.

Again, for the record, I don't really blame the guy.at all. Yukino was the aggressor all the the way. Ironically, I don't think I would have taken that so personally, on Setsuka's behalf, if the guy was the one pushing it.

last edited at May 25, 2018 3:08PM

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

In my case it's not so much that bisexuality is bad (hell, I'm biromantic myself), but I don't trust manga authors to be any good at depicting it. As a rule they've got a history of being pretty terrible at it.

So bis are great, stories about bis tend to be pretty crap.

Didn't you know? Male or female, we only exist to incite narrative drama by cheating on our partners.

And we always cheat with people of the opposite gender than our partners. Yuri manga have not been kind to bi people, lol.

It's not just yuri manga. I read a webcomic where the exact same thing happened with a male couple.

There could be a small grain of truth in there, although not in the sense of bi people being somehow actually more horrible than straight or gay ones. I talked once (hence this is not really a representative sample) with a lesbian on this site whose girlfriend cheated on her with a guy, she did say the fact it was a guy made the whole experience harder to take. But that does not apply to all lesbians, I imagine, plus, even when it is relevant it is only applicable to situations where a bi person actually cheats, and cheats with a person of the opposite gender, at that. And the chances of bi people cheating are no different than those of gay or straight people.

There is also the fact most yuri fans look at any traces of het in their yuri as the work of Satan himself, and there is no way authors who work primarily or solely in this genre are unaware of that. If I had to guess, I would say the writers are probably using bi characters for cheap shock value, as in, to somehow make cheating even more horrible than it already is in the eyes of the audience. Yaoi genre could be doing it for the same cheap reasons. Mind you, this is just idle speculation on my part.

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

Be my friend. Let us hate heterosexuality together. Even though I am straight myself. Hypocritical, I know. If only my girlfriend and I were the only heterosexual people in the world, that would be perfect.

I accept your friend request. Now lets rule the yuri galaxy with an iron fist. Go forth and show those het lovers the true power of the yuri side.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

I will not delve into the whole gay-purity-destroyed-by-het, because I find the whole concept to be beyond ridiculous, but I will point out you chose the wrong example. "Octave" did not use het to "drive home the knife" with the cheating aspect, it was an element of Yukino's confusion about her own sexuality, and her wanting to know where she stood. The way she went about it was wrong, but not because of het, and it was certainly not used to make the cheating worse in the eyes of the audience.

Argh. First of all, when I talk about, cute little yuri girl throwing away her purity, with a guy, I'm talking about yuri stories. NOT REAL LIFE! I'm not some chiche anime character obsessed with purity. Anyway didn't you see my earlier comment about heterosexuality making the end of yuri stories more satisfying.

Second Yukino's one night stand, with the creep in the cab (I know I'm not being fair to him), was less about questioning her sexuality, and more about her feeling lost and lonely. Yukino latched on to the first person who showed her kindness, just because Setsuka shut off her phone, to work, and wasn't available to comfort her.
If Yukino's affair wasn't ment to drive in the knife, the author sure went out of her way to do so. I mean, the exact moment Yukino was cheating on Setsuka, Setsuka was coming to the conclusion that she was totally in love with Yukino. Then Setsuka rushed over to Yukino's apartment, to tell her. Only to fall asleep waiting, so Setsuka could be there to witness Yukino's walk of shame. Then finally, Yukino pushes Setsuka away, out of guilt. If that's not driving home the knife, I don't know what is. The only way that scene could have been anymore heartbreaking for Setsuka, is if she would have walked in on Yukino and the guy doing it.

Third, I just want to go on the record, and say I don't think a bisexual person is anymore likely to cheat, than a straight, or gay person.

last edited at May 25, 2018 2:14AM

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

In my case it's not so much that bisexuality is bad (hell, I'm biromantic myself), but I don't trust manga authors to be any good at depicting it. As a rule they've got a history of being pretty terrible at it.

So bis are great, stories about bis tend to be pretty crap.

Didn't you know? Male or female, we only exist to incite narrative drama by cheating on our partners.

And we always cheat with people of the opposite gender than our partners. Yuri manga have not been kind to bi people, lol.

It's not just yuri manga. I read a webcomic where the exact same thing happened with a male couple.

There could be a small grain of truth in there, although not in the sense of bi people being somehow actually more horrible than straight or gay ones. I talked once (hence this is not really a representative sample) with a lesbian on this site whose girlfriend cheated on her with a guy, she did say the fact it was a guy made the whole experience harder to take. But that does not apply to all lesbians, I imagine, plus, even when it is relevant it is only applicable to situations where a bi person actually cheats, and cheats with a person of the opposite gender, at that. And the chances of bi people cheating are no different than those of gay or straight people.

There is also the fact most yuri fans look at any traces of het in their yuri as the work of Satan himself, and there is no way authors who work primarily or solely in this genre are unaware of that. If I had to guess, I would say the writers are probably using bi characters for cheap shock value, as in, to somehow make cheating even more horrible than it already is in the eyes of the audience. Yaoi genre could be doing it for the same cheap reasons. Mind you, this is just idle speculation on my part.

I find myself triggered when a cute little yuri girl throws away her purity, on a dirty stinking guy. Hell, I still fume when I think about Yukino and the guy from the cab, in the series Octive, and I read that story 5yrs ago. I think the authors know that's how their readers feal so they use cheating with a guy to really drive home the knife. In a way it lets the reader feel the betrayal as strongly as the character facing it.

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joined Sep 1, 2017

and not some perv guy writing out some hentai fantasy.

Girls can't be perv? Isn't Mira a woman who does some of the best perverted hentai on this website ٩(♡ε♡)۶

If Mira isn't a woman, I know more private example and stuff.

Heck yeah girls can be pervs! For some reason, I find women's pery stories much more... lets go with acceptable. Besides an man writing about inappropriate relationships between girls, seems wrong to me, somehow.

I think Mira is actually a collection of authors working under a single banner. But don't quote my on that.

Now you know how I feel when male characters are in yuri manga, and when one of the MC's had one or more boyfriends/male lovers/ male sexual partners. Same concept really.

Actually. I'm not sure what your getting at. Are you saying you don't like het in your yuri?

Basically. The bisexual tag is also a red flag for me

I find stories where heterosexuality rears it's ugly head hard to read too. But they are more satisfying, in the end, for me. I feel those girls are truly in love, and not just playing a love game, because there are no men in their lives.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Pay back is a bitch baby.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Really didn't end the way I thought it would. Still good though.

C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

and not some perv guy writing out some hentai fantasy.

Girls can't be perv? Isn't Mira a woman who does some of the best perverted hentai on this website ٩(♡ε♡)۶

If Mira isn't a woman, I know more private example and stuff.

Heck yeah girls can be pervs! For some reason, I find women's pery stories much more... lets go with acceptable. Besides an man writing about inappropriate relationships between girls, seems wrong to me, somehow.

I think Mira is actually a collection of authors working under a single banner. But don't quote my on that.

Now you know how I feel when male characters are in yuri manga, and when one of the MC's had one or more boyfriends/male lovers/ male sexual partners. Same concept really.

Actually. I'm not sure what your getting at. Are you saying you don't like het in your yuri?

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

auikimaya posted:

Oh right! I forgot we live in a fucking cultural vacuum and positive portrayals of rape doesn't have terrible negative repercussions, like fucking normalizing rape culture and the romanticizing of abusive relationships!

It doesn't. If you weren't likely to rape someone before, after reading it, you won't suddenly start raping young girls. You're supposed to tell fiction from reality.

Then again, if it is true. You are better off making crusade against 50th Shades of Grey, which romanticize abusive relationship and is read by millions of people world wide thinking it is legit romance story. Not some niche yuri manga, that probably doesn't sell that well.

I want to go after 50 Shades of Gray, just on bad writing alone. CURSE YOU TWILIGHT!!!

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

There are undoubtedly going to be moral problems with the couple this author is going for.

As many of you have voiced out, we know it is morally wrong to pursue a relationship with a huge age gap and to take advantage of a reasonably very young girl who doesn't even know what sex is. This is just a situational context that the author has chosen to bring out certain feelings of the reader. We're too overly concerned about the rape (yes we know how wrong it is) and try to look at what the mangaka is trying to make us feel, which is the undeniable attraction between Jinno and Kousaka, the forbiddeness of their relationship and how are they crossing the barriers to have their romantic relationship blossom and work out for each other.

Afterwall, a work is meant to be experienced, I guess? You can love the progress of them getting together and overcoming those age barriers and morality wrongness, but yet, you can choose to not support the idea at the same time.

I could get behind the whole "forbidden love" thing. But, did Kousaka-san, and Jinno-san's first time have to be a blatant rape scene? And, did Jinno -san have to act like a rape victom afterwards? It's hard to sigh at a forbidden love realised, when all you can do is think "I should call the special victoms unit"

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

auikimaya posted:

It's only okay when Murciélago portrays similar themes, gals. Move on, nothing to see other than forced moral talk over here.

Nobody is saying Murcielago is ok in portrarying sexual violence. In fact, pretty much every action in that manga can be summed up with "This is extremely fucked up, we know".

Here tho, we have an adult woman grooming and raping a young girl, too young and too naive to even give consent, and the artist seems to be trying to portray it with romantic undertones. Like this is supposed to be something to support. And no

Wait wait wait, so the author was supposed to draw the adult woman with an evil smile, horns and stuff like that? like "HEY THIS IS THE BAD PERSON HERE! DON'T DO THIS IS BAAAD" and the girl with tears and scratches? like, there's sex with flowers and sugar and then there's demonic sex and the author is in obligation to demonstrate the difference every time, because this isn't a manga story, is sex education, a psychological example of a bad encounter? well no... Why can't you just use the same excuse of Murcielago and accept this for what it is? do you avoid every violence action or sexual behavior en manga/anime? you want every story to be about good people having a good time? sorry for all the questions, my point is, this is a story, it doesn't have to be black or white, it doesn't have to suit your sense of morals or your tastes at all, is just telling certain event, whatever the characters feel is not for us to decide and if they end up together is not the author saying "Yeah I support rape" she/he just wanted to tell a story.

Rape is bad? Of course, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that.
Rape is bad therefore there shouldn't be any stories portraying such action? Well, no.

Seriously, I think if any of the people complaining had to make the chapter 3 it would be "Hello, police? yeah I want to report something ... [The End]"

PS: If you want to know the ending just look for the raws somewhere else and keep it to yourself geez

People are upset that rape is being used in such a casual manner. A 30yr old woman had unconsenting sex with a 13yr old girl. and the story is treating it as if it's just the woman's way of helping the girl grow up. That's a little hard to accept. It doesn't help that Jinno-san is acting like a traumatized rape victom. I think that this is meant to be a coming of age love story, but it's hard to take it that way.
I'm not as offended as some readers, but I see where they are coming from. Alot of manga treat rape too casually. Sometimes I get the idea that the japanese think rape is no big deal.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

I think there are a number of factors contributing to this feeling like rape, in addition to the girl being 13 and the adult being 30 something. Her behavior is... creepy to say the least. She doesn't appear to want anything to do with adults. I wonder if the author is aware of just how creepy she's made Kousaka-san. Also even if Jinno-san understood what was going on... In Japan she's not at the age of consent. It's rape any way you slice it.

Yeah your right, it's rape no matter how you slice it. I would just feel better, if Jinno-san at least understood and consented. Even if the consent meant nothing legaly.

johnb
C2731dea4191b182ecd8f18498562a84
joined Sep 1, 2017

Geeze. I wish they would post these comments, latest to earliest.