ceciliasol posted:

I'm not going to answer this point by point, just here to say that...

People who have dicks are guys

it is a abnormal state.

Being homosexual doesn't need being diagnosed, but being trans does,

Gender identity disorder is a mental illness

Transgender people have a disorder between their body and mind

Because you are listing them out of context as supposedly bad things I said, it is clear you didn't understand anything from what I wrote.

and on the opinion you have of transgender people

Oh, do tell me what kind of opinion I have about transgender people, since I never stated any.

I don't feel it would be productive to pursue this debate with you.

You "corrected" me so I corrected you back, but sure, you can run away from difficult discussion if you want.

Also, funny how you say I'm "imposing" my opinion that trans people aren't sick, but you're doing the exact same thing by saying we are.

I'm not imposing my opinion, I'm stating the medical fact.

ceciliasol posted:

some are born with biological body that doesn't match their gender identity which can be diagnosed by doctors

Actually, you can't diagnose. Medicine currently uses the DSM and CID classifications of "gender identity disorder" or "transsexualism" to try and separate "real trans people" from those who "aren't real". This approach is flawed, people who have been diagnosed based on medical criteria sometimes detransition, and many people who don't fit the criteria are just as transgender as me or anyone else.

Well then, nightblade96 was right. It is just your viewpoint and you can't force it on other people. You can go and change your body etc. but don't expect rest of people just accepting your whims. People who have dicks are guys, you can go and think differently but most people will disagree.

You seem to fail to understand that, that kind of acknowledge by medicine is important if you want it to be accepted world wide. Listing it as something that can be confirmed makes it a fact and give you argument to discuss with people. Also without it, you can forgot about being officially recognized as your psychological gender by government etc. because it would really be just a whim. You can choose how you want to live your life, but nobody else has to agree with it, but this way it force them to acknowledge it and in fact it normalizes it. If you want to be unique, only trans on earth, then go ahead, but that is not the case. It is something that happens to more people, hence it was studied and accepted. Without it getting a hormone therapy, surgery or any medical help in general would be much harder as well. So I really don't think you should trade all of this over not wanting transgender to be considered a disorder. Also you talk as if the fact there are some criteria is a bad thing. They use some of base personality testes, but the most important thing is still what you feel. As long as you experience dysphoria to some degree and identify as opposite gender, there shouldn't really be any issue with getting accepted for treatment. I actually heard nobody ever detransition or at least it is really rare, so in case they do, I'm more inclined to think they doctor did their job poorly. Decision to start hormones and get a surgery is huge and especially surgery is permanent, that is why there should be someone who make sure you make a right choice. There might be other things influencing your feelings, so talking to professional about it can clear up a lot of things and let you make sure, you want it. Again, I'm pretty sure it is rather fault of poor doctors that some people were rejected rather than issue with process of diagnosing itself. So I don't think they are being mean and accept or reject people at random and still overall having some kind of moderation and guidance is better than people just doing it on their own and regretting later.

There's a strong international movement towards the depatologization of transgender identities (let me remind you that lesbians, gays and bisexuals were once under the same diagnosis criteria, but have since then been recognized as real by most of society without the associated disease stigma).

Look, cos it is getting ridiculous. Yes, being gay was once considered a mental illness etc. but isn't anymore, because doctors/researchers/scientist/whatever were researching it and didn't find a case and came to conclusion it is something that you are born with and you can't just change it. It isn't illness because it doesn't make you sick, hurt you or anything.

Now then look at being transgender. You are born with wrong body, you experience dysphoria, it negatively affects all aspects of your life. Is that something you consider normal? No, it isn't. That is why trans people undergo hormone therapy and surgery. Because they want to set things right, to make things feel the way they should. Natural. Is it depathologization of trans people? No, because it is a abnormal state. Being born with wrong body. Unless you want to say when you are trans being born with wrong body is natural. Then trans people shouldn't complain, because everything is the way it is supposed to be.

Being homosexual is not the same as being trans, so grouping it together and saying as if treatment of 1 term should be exactly the same as other is wrong. You are born with both, but they affect you differently. One is your sexual preference and other is your freaking gender identity. Being homosexual doesn't need being diagnosed, but being trans does, but doesn't make either any more real or fake. Again, if you want to be taken seriously you can't run away from reality that being transgender is not norm, it isn't something you see everyday. If it was just 1 person way of living then sure, there is no need of any acknowledge, but it isn't. It is a problem that bother more people and they all have similar roots and signs.

As I said before they didn't try to diagnose homosexuals to validated them. They tried to figure out what is the cause and cure it if possible, but they realized it has nothing to do with being sick. So the fact they removed homosexuality from list of illness doesn't suddenly validated gay people and make them officially real or something. Those who were gay were real all the time and they don't need validation. Being trans is not just your sexual preference. You identified as opposite gender so normally they would automatically consider you crazy and want to treat your head. Because that is not like 99% of humanity works. But they studied it and figured out that it is something that actually happens and you are not crazy. So again, they didn't suddenly validated all trans people, just confirmed it was something that you are born with. Still you talk as if being gay/lesbian/bisexual was easily accepted world wide. In both cases it takes time for entire society to accept it and we are still far from being done with accepting homosexuals, so trans people who are even rarer and even harder to grasp for most people, have even longer way. So even in case they would really remove it from list, it wouldn't magically make everyone accept trans people overnight.

they win a rare disease

Err... kinda horrible to refer to transgender people as diseased, don't you think?

Except it was just a comparison and I never called them "diseased". I was trying to be as direct as possible to get the idea through, but of course someone has to get offended over nothing. Actually I'm getting tired of people trying so hard to avoid using word like illness etc. so I can as well open that can of worms. Gender identity disorder is a mental illness, but there is nothing wrong with calling it that. First of all disorder and illness means the same thing in medicine. They try to avoid word illness and disease in some cases because people have bad associations with the word, but in practice there is no difference. Transgender people have a disorder between their body and mind, as in one is of 1 gender and other is of the other. As I said before, trying to change mind to fit their body never worked, and only changing of the body gives any positive effects, but that doesn't change the fact there is something wrong. You are depressed, feel discomfort and all that shitty stuff so in order to get better you need treatment. Cure if you will. The issue is not by pathologizing homosexuals or trans, by rather that most people view stuff like mental illness etc. negatively and avoid going to psychiatrists/psychologists to avoid being labeled as mentally ill etc. The freaking depression is considered as a mental illness and somehow nobody is getting shamed for saying they are depressed. So really we should instead focus on depathologizing people with mental illness and other stuff considered stigmatizing and turn it into norm. A lot people have mental illnesses, but they are not insane and can live normal lives. So yea, the part you decided to get offended by was basically "they already are unlucky to have a very rare serious illness they have to deal with and it is crappy already, so the least thing you can do is accept their struggle and don't insult them over it", but because there was a word disease in it you consider bad, you failed to notice the entire quote was positive.

Nya-chan posted:

If not for this tag shenanigans, I would have said too that it's yuri.

I pretty much only read it because I randomly checked dpf comment and his post about wondering if they should tag it futa or trans, but either way sex scene clearly points it is not yuri, made me rise a eyebrow, because it was clearly implying neither futa or trans can be considered yuri. So yea, I read it biased towards fact that You is supposed to be either of them and was reading it focusing on figuring which it is. Story did give me more of a trans vibe, but if I had read it blind, I might think differently.

EDIT/

ceciliasol posted:

who don't feel in the wrong bodies, just in the wrong imposed gender;

Well, most trans want to change their bodies to be as feminie as possible, so it is pretty good short cut for majority, but if you are ok with your body, more power to you.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 2:49PM

Seriously, did this thread woke up all transphobic people on dynasty that now wants to argue something we already spend 3 pages establishing and agreeing on ending conversation on that topic?

nightblade96 posted:

How can it be yuri if it's heterosexual sexual intercourse between a biological male and a biological female

Accidentally we don't know if You is biologically male or not in this story because it isn't explicitly show and there are people arguing there was no "heterosexual intercourse". Still in case of trans character there can be "heterosexual" intercourse while it still counts as yuri, because that is what pre-operation trans person has and if they choose to use it, it is their own will. And yes, for the most part having a dick is a depressing thing for a trans, but there are different degree of dysphoria so some don't mind it as much and probably would be ok with using it.

Sexual identification is fine and all but bending everyone else to your own viewpoint is just selfish

The thing it isn't just their viewpoint. That is a established fact. It is rare and happens for less than 1% of all people, but some are born with biological body that doesn't match their gender identity which can be diagnosed by doctors. Any attempts to try to help them "change" or convince them to be happy with their body never worked out hence the only option left was to try doing the opposite. Changing their biological body to gender they identity as, and guess what, it actually works and let trans people get ride of feeling of dysphoria towards their body. So no, it isn't simply their whims but they are actually a rare case of someone of 1 gender being born with other. Basically they win a rare disease on a lottery and you still choose to insult them. It is like making fun of people with terminal illness.

nightblade96 posted:

So you can say that every het doujin is yuri as long you argue that the guy identifies as a woman? what

But nobody argues that because there is no need to when neither of characters shows any signs of being unhappy with their gender. The problem is when there are hints at least 1 of the characters are trans who, people like you, insist don't count as female, because she still has a dick so obviously she is male then.

If there's both penis and vagina then it's futanari

And again, the entire issue is that in this case it isn't clear from context because you can't see what You have and only thing we have is context of the story and what author said. And as already was made clear, the context of the story can be interpreted in different ways. Doesn't change the fact that either transgender character or futanari character considering themselves female and having sex with other female is a lesbian sex hence it is yuri.

Nya-chan posted:

Well, is You identifying as a male or as a female in there??

What gender was he/she assigned at birth?

This is pretty confusing.

If this doujin is indeed transgender, and You has a dick, then it means that You is a trans male. Because You Watanabe is a girl in the original.

So it's het, not yuri. And you all are fighting the wrong fight.

Or I didn't get enough sleep and my mind is foggy. Either or.

You are sleep.

If You is originally a woman and in this doujin has a dick but still present herself as woman than she is trans female. And usually when doujins make characters be transgender, they still identify as the gender from the show, so again, You has a dick because she was born male but identify as a female. And my prove she is identify as a female is because older women calls her a girl and she doesn't correct her. If she was male either trans or not, she would correct her, unless she didn't want to correct her, because she wanted to be seen as a girl.

nightblade96 posted:

i thought the general rule is it's not yuri if there's a penis involved

did I miss something?

Yes, entire existence of people who are born with wrong gender.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 5:56AM

meanmachinery posted:

Just a reminder transgender x female isn't yuri.

This is exactly why this doujin should be tagged as "transgender" and "yuri", so that people will realize that transgender girls are also yuri.

No, they said it exactly because they don't consider trans woman, a woman, and wanted to "correct" us. Different tags wouldn't change anything.

last edited at Apr 15, 2017 5:42AM

Entoma posted:

Just a reminder transgender x female isn't yuri.

You shouldn't use term transgender if you are not accepting them in the first place.

Alice Cheshire posted:

gork5 posted:

I like how they made it seem more realistic by spending more time on building up to the relationship than most series do but I wish they had spent equal time focusing on the relationship

This is really a strange complaint when you consider that the overwhelming majority of mangas choose one or the other to begin with. Very few at all deal with both the "before the relationship starts" bits as well as afterwards.

Just because most choose it, it doesn't mean they can't do both. They usually choose 1 because they only have idea for one of them. I actually agree, it would be much better if more mangas would get a bit more about how they date once the couple finally gets together. Also let's be honest, it is much easier to write about how they get to fall in love with each other and dragging the point before they hook up, for as long as possible, than write about actual couple life, so must of artist only goes for the first. I wish there was more couple life stories.

Nya-chan posted:

Except, maybe, the position?

Well "going somewhere where people will not know me" and general depressing feeling fits into it pretty well, but yea, the position just doesn't seem like one you would use to have lesbian sex. They don't really touch themselves, scissoring is hard to achieve in the first place and definitely not from this position and I doubt either of them carry strap-on or dildo with them at all times and even if they could get it in hotel I don't think you usually go for it when you have sex with someone for the first time, especially when it is literally your first time (and I don't even want to start discussion about sex doesn't count until there is penetration, so it is obvious they would use something). Again I'm open to it not being trans at all, that is why I said it just seems and feel to me this way, but if we are going to tag it with either of them, I think trans fits better.

last edited at Apr 14, 2017 1:41PM

meanmachinery posted:

Thing is, this isn't even a futanari doujin, is it? No penis is ever depicted, so I feel that tag could be removed and replaced with a yuri one, which would represent the doujin far better.

Well to me it feels much more like trans story than futa, but because author is know for futa doujins and they supposedly tagged it this way, everyone jumped to conclusion it has to be futa.

Wow nyanya. You said you will shut up and then create new account to keep complaining? Or you fucked up and logged in into wrong account by mistake? Or you don't care anymore at this point? Either way, I don't have to know if you are smart or not, you just proved to me yourself you are a moron.

EDIT/ And the moron's post were purged. How to not love this guy.

last edited at Apr 14, 2017 12:17PM

VivianGames posted:

but if there's a trans girl then its automatically not yuri?

Just to clarify, Dynasty does tag Transgender and Yuri together. The issue is more that this story was originally tagged as Futanari which Dynasty never tags as yuri, because too many people hate futanari, don't want to read it, don't consider it yuri and apparently can't use tags to avoid stories they don't like. Futanari is treated differently here than Transgender and whatever staff here consider futa as yuri or not, they choose to always separate those 2 tags and doesn't seem to intended on changing it.

Minutoh don't argue with him, it is our dynasty Troll-kun next alternative account. There is no reasoning with this guy.

last edited at Apr 14, 2017 3:18AM

nyanya posted:

unless of course you have some weird bias going on, like the "females are more pure" bullshit...

Nah. It is simple yuri makes everything better.

alexuh55 posted:

though I doubt he'll see this.

I'm sure he won't see it.

TransHomura posted:

Transgirl pissed off hearing that she's a straight guy walks up confused af

Site policy.

So is You trans sorry confused.

Depends how you look at it, but she seems to be trans.

last edited at Apr 13, 2017 9:59PM

Luuuk posted:

It's pretty clear drpepperfan didn't say that as an insult whatsoever

Even if they didn't, it still came out this way. Suggesting being trans and having sex with a women doesn't count as yuri, shows they don't consider trans girls as girls. So I can understand people getting upset about it. Especially since the futanari is already a hot topic and often gets dismissed as not yuri, even though it works the same way. As long both characters identify as women, it is yuri.

Luuuk posted:

It's either that or Transgender, I've not been sure which to go with.

The sex scene shows that it's not yuri however.

"a trans girl having sex with another girl isn't yuri"

go fuck yourself you transphobic cunt

Now that's most certainly no the way to try and get your point across. That just makes you look bad.

It got the point pretty well imo. Also since when you are supposed to make a polite answer to insult? Also I don't remember since when being straightforward makes your points invalid.

drpepperfan posted:

The sex scene shows that it's not yuri however.

I fail to see how it is not yuri. Both of them clearly identify as women.

tmtvl posted:

I'm going cross-eyed, how did we get here from "what's yuri" again?

Because yuri is all about feminism and politics. You didn't know?

Nezchan posted:

I'll never understand why "vanilla" came to be used to mean "boring". Vanilla is an amazing, versatile flavour, and can be quite bold. In culinary terms, it's anything BUT dull!

I think it means more like "default", so by extension boring, because the default taste/way etc. get boring fast and you want something different and more exciting (I personally don't feel like vanilla actually has taste at all, but I was told it is just me).

frigidbones posted:

love between 2 or more women is a good definition for the sake of utility and tagging.

Em, no. That is literally the definition of yuri. There are no political or w/e elements to it. Again, you can push them using yuri, but yuri itself is not political.

But for any other purpose, I think its unsatisfying to ignore that love between 2 women is a political act.

Except it isn't. At this rate you will say love between man and woman is a political act and if you don't want to be sexist, racist, misogynist, patriarchy and male supremacy supporting person you can never be in het relationship.

You describe those politics as "the problem of sexuality in Japan" and Yuri is shaped by these politics (I mean the class S genre and the curse of infinite schoolgirl yuri didn't come from a cultural vacuum) - and yeah, it would be a mistake to position Western Feminism as the the most authentic voice for writing yuri, but I think its rewarding to at least try and engage with that history and note the authors, like Zaoh Taishi and Eiki Eiki, who are more conscious of yuri as a political act.

And as I said, you are clearly pushing the western feminism agenda that they didn't. You say it would be mistake to mix those 2 up and yet you are doing it by using those american terms that doesn't fit into context. I know about S genre etc. and that is what they fight against. They fight against those politics, not some non-existent male patriarchy american feminist believe into. In fact it is hard to fight against american male patriarchy living in Japan. And even if they do use yuri to give some message, it doesn't automatically make yuri political. It makes their works political and they just happen to use yuri, because they though it will fit the message better and enhance it more.

The authors I quoted are pretty open about how responding to male supremacy is a central part of their creation of lesbian text.

Not really as I explained before, but also because male supremacy doesn't exist in Japan or in general so they can't really make their works trying to abolish it. They might try to say something about other issues japanese faces but it definitely doesn't line up with your feminist ideas.

And yeah, most lesbians don't love women in order to piss off the patriarchy, at least not since the 1970s,

Wow. "Most" lesbians. So you are implying there exist lesbians that "become" lesbians just to piss of something that doesn't even exist? I feel so sorry for them.

but lesbians and lesbian fiction are two different kettles of fish.

Of course it is, but not the way you think. It is more of fiction is not always the same as reality and that is good or bad depending on the given work. Definitely has nothing to do with real lesbians are not "political act" but "lesbian fiction" is (though you just admitted "real" lesbians can be a political act too). Can you please not hijack entire genre (or however you want to call stories focusing or having lesbians in them) and arbitrarily make it all about pushing your political stances? Some of lesbian fictions are just that, fictions which doesn't give a fuck about what weird and fucked up thoughts are hiding inside your head and definitely doesn't want to be part of promoting them.

Sure, there's a huge market for respectable gay fiction that mimics dynamics of het love stories without challenge gender roles / sexism,

Wow, that one is a headache. What do you even mean by that? That people want to read gay stories that actually try to emulate dynamic of het and gender roles? That most people look for stories like that? That is probably the biggest bs I heard from you yet. Sure, there are works that feels a bit more like typical het couple, but that is not because they are trying to mimic het dynamic on purpose (though in some case I bet it is just easier for writer to write, not because of some political stances) and definitely not because they are sexist. In fact yaoi is infamous for doing this, while it is yuri that is usually more lenient about it and doesn't try to split girls into 2 specific roles and let them just act according to their characters. And the sexist part is again so shoehorn into it, it is really hard to take you seriously. Again, not every single yuri work has to comment on political etc. issues, so don't say it like works that don't do it, are inherently worse or bad in general. For someone who wants to argue about what yuri is and isn't you sure seems to not read a lot of them. Majority of yuri is all about challenging gender roles, because 2 girls getting together inherently challenges those gender roles. And again, it doesn't mean all yuri works are political by default, but because of nature of how the homosexual relationship works, it does usually tackle those type of issues, but isn't required too. Author can choose to totally ignore all of problems lesbian couples can face and there is nothing wrong with it. It is just yuridamn fiction.

but there are also lots of lesbian writes who actively engage with homophobia and gender norms in their work. Artists in general actually.

Which again is both very common in yuri stories because they are about lesbians and Japan can be pretty homophobic so when you try to write a realistic story, you have no choice but to address those issues otherwise your story won't feel realistic. If you want to go more in dept on commenting on those social issues, sure, but don't force all yuri to be political.

Since you indulged the male gaze, I'll indulge your post-feminism quip.

Again, nice straw man. I'm not indulging male gaze, but as you proved to me already you care more about made up stuff and assumptions than truth. Yet again, didn't even bother to refute my argument, rather ignore it.

To clarify, radical feminists have a bad history with the term natural. Led to lots of transphobia, bierasure, kink shaming and other hierarchies of desire.

So because of that we should avoid using word natural because you have bad history with it?

I self-identify as an American kill-joy feminist. But I did make an effort to ground my analysis of yuri as a political act in the work of Kazumi Nagaike

That is the problem with feminists right now. Everything has to be about political stances and oppression of women. Sure, you are a kill-joy feminist, but only thing you are achieving is killing fun. Nothing else.

Best Quote: "Yurihime manga clearly represent women's subconscious desire to transcend the femaleness which has been imposed on them within the Japanese hetero-normative context. This analysis of lesbian sexuality/identity in contemporary Japan might well be enriched by examining the depiction of lesbian relationships in other kinds of manga and dōjinshi .... a comparative analysis may make it possible to discern how, in the Japanese sociocultural context, femaleness per se can be elaborated and thereby liberated from the patriarchal strictures which have previously been imposed."

Well, then she got indoctrinated just fine, cos from what I read I only see more and more buzz words and forcing yuri into american feminist lenses.

I'm still pretty sure the japanese feminism and american one are quite different and the vibe I'm getting from frigidbones posts is they are speaking about american's.

frigidbones posted:

Yeah, its definitely not a representative characterization of how most artists write yuri

It isn't representative of yuri at all. Yuri is about love between 2 females. You can push your agendas through it, but on it's core, it isn't part of what makes yuri, yuri.

I'm not sure why denouncing male sexual dominance and male gazey, one-dimensional constructions of women's sexuality* would have nothing to do with feminism.

I said it has nothing to do with yuri. Yuri is about lesbians and lesbians has nothing to do with feminism. You don't become lesbian so you are no longer "dominated" by guys or are free to express your sexuality and needs. You are lesbian because you like freaking girls. There is no trying to become freed from male supremacy or some crap like that. In fact the story you gave as example gets a lot flag because it suggest the only reason girls become interested in girls are because they had bad experiences with guys and become scared and/or distant from them. It still has nothing to do with "being freed from men" but rather is example of running away from reality. Also I love how you shoehorn the "male gaze" in there.

Which is not to say that the authors achieve that perfectly through "she-wolf" but I love that they're at least engaging radical feminist lines of thought.

And I fail to see how it is a good thing and reading that quote I'm pretty sure you and article took it out of context and use it to push your pointless agenda. The problem of sexuality in japanese is that everyone is expected to find their partner, make family and have kids. Being a lesbian is only treated as just a phase. Men are expect to be the ones in charge as well as women are expected to be shy, obedient and in general perfect waifus waiting for their husbandos at home. The idea of girls having their own sexual desires is mostly shamed and the idea of pure virgin that is totally innocent and has no idea about sex and is easily embarrassed is the most prominent. I'm pretty sure the meaning of what those authors said is more to show 1. lesbianism is a serious business 2. girls have their needs too. I could bet it has nothing do to with feminism, which is mostly american creation anyway and for the most part lost its purpose long ago.

*admittedly, I don't love their use of "natural" in the quote

I don't see anything wrong with it unless you suggest women don't have natural sex desires, which is even more insulting to read.

frigidbones posted:

"to denounce a society in which men always take the (sexual) initiative over women. We also wish to show our dissatisfaction toward men who don't understand women's natural sexual desires"

That has nothing to do with yuri though.

= yuri as radical feminism

And definitely nothing to do with feminism, radical or not.