MayaKuro is cute and MaHiKaren is sweet alright, but the borderline toxic ship FutaKao is my jam.
squishy-shi
Dec 18, 2020 9:23PM
ah, finally, some good food
KS YuuHaru
Dec 18, 2020 9:44PM
^^They are not toxic, maybe Kaoruko just tease Futaba in order to Futaba assault her...that's kinda toxic forget it
Kirin
Dec 18, 2020 11:46PM
Futaba and Kaoruko always struck me as more codependent than purely toxic, in that they enable each other's worst tendencies (passivity and arrogance), but only around each other, because every other person in their lives has saddled them with impossible expectations and so they need some kind of validating outlet.
KareHika are childhood sweethearts, MayaKuro are rivals with benefits, JunNana are a newlywed couple with some dark secrets, but FutaKao is a ship that's in the late marital stage, simultaneously deeper and shallower than all the others. So it's only fitting how the resolution to their troubles is not sappy self-sacrifice, but a remembrance of what made them so twisted in the first place, and an agreement to not change something that's kept them happy and sane for so long.
Without Futaba, Kaoruko would've ended up like Maya, and without Kaoruko, Futaba would've had no purpose in life and no role in the show. Togetherness isn't the best ending- it's just a different kind of conflict for a different kind of plot, all within the greater scope of the disaster-lesbian-epic that is Starlight.
Rather long post, but this ship barely gets any discussion beyond the odd 'toxic' meme, so I wanted to share my perspective on it.
sofieru
Dec 19, 2020 7:18AM
^ THANK YOU!
Also, "disaster-lesbian-epic" is the best description of Starlight I've come across.
TctyaDDK
Dec 19, 2020 7:38AM
^^ I agree with all your points (though can JunNana really be considered newlywed, with Nana looped the year about 5 dozens times and still sticks to Junna? A tad obsessive, imo, but as with Homura, it's its own kind of great). That's why I said it's borderline toxic.
Kirin
Dec 19, 2020 8:10AM
^ JunNana are interesting because they have a dynamic that instantly fits together and is arguably the most domestic in the show- they're not as competitive as MayaKuro, not as naïve as KareHika and not as mature as FutaKao. I call them newlyweds because they're at the arguable peak of their relationship- they've been together for long enough to fall in love with each other, clashed a few times over minor issues (like the Class Rep position), and know exactly what to say in order to support each other. There's no need to dramatically prove their love, and no need to renew it- it's incredibly stable, even within the revues, without the greenness or the rot.
Of course, this is all from Junna's perspective- in Nana's eyes, their relationship is essentially a chemical formula that's painstakingly recreated year over year, with everything measured out and maintained, isolated from new elements. It's a flower in an artificial greenhouse that feeds off itself, blooming without ever creating something new. The newlywed metaphor still works, because Nana is striving to keep them in that ideal space.
Your point about Homura is quite pertinent, because I think Starlight is what you'd call a post-Madoka show, made at a time when brutal deconstructions of optimistic narratives were quite popular. While it's more inspired by Utena in terms of aesthetics, the time-looping and the deal-offering giraffe were anime-original elements specifically meant to evoke Madoka. Nana is quite similar to Homura, Hikari wants to be both Homura and Madoka, and Karen hilariously just goes, "Guys, this isn't Madoka. Can y'all stop being so edgy?". It's basically what you'd get in a universe where Madoka as a show was super-popular and became adapted and imitated across every form of media, butchering and time-looping countless lesbians for tragedy, until a bunch of girls in 2018 took a look at the script and went, "Well, this is nice, but don't you think it's a bit too melodramatic, contrived and edgy for our time? Screw this, let's show all those edgy audiences that a happy ending can be simultaneously more intelligent and more entertaining than a bury-your-gays tragedy." And boy, did it work magnificently.
Also a rather long comment, but I will gush about Starlight till the end of time because it's a masterpiece.
KS YuuHaru
Dec 19, 2020 11:05AM
^Yeah sounds kinda rough to hear that without Kaoruko, Futaba's role would be unfullfilled but i think that Kaoruko more than end like Maya, she would be more arrogant like an "extremist" version of her, it would be certain to say, that maybe nobody could stand her at some point, Futaba is like that part that put her limits in how she behave. In a few words without her she would be like those antagonist helpers that die or become good and after that become irrelevant for the plot. I like how you describe those pairing btw
SuperText
Dec 19, 2020 11:30AM
^^So have we come full circle, deconstructing the deconstructions?
I believe "edginess" to be a fault in the writing rather than something inherent to the genre; PMMM was followed by many copycats that tried to recapture the same aesthetics on a superficial level, but I think the original iteration can still be appreciated in isolation.
Tragedy will always be a relevant genre; at the same time, since its birth society and human relationships have evolved quite a bit. This means that sometimes fictional lesbians might suffer and perish for the sake of artistic expression, but that shouldn't be labeled a case of "bury your gays" without a second thought. Not trying to criticize anyone here, just voicing my opinion on the use of certain tropes nowadays.
last edited at Dec 19, 2020 11:31AM
Kirin
Dec 19, 2020 3:14PM
^ Fair point. Although it's worth mentioning that shows that feature magical girls getting hurt, killed and deceived are as old as the genre itself, and Urobuchi's take on magical girls isn't anywhere near as original or groundbreaking as many fans believe (Phantom Thief Jeanne did the 'your familiar is actually evil all along' thing way back in the 90s, and the TV tropes page on Magical Girl Deconstructions lists various other examples that predated Madoka). This, ironically enough, would made Madoka closer to the 'copycats' than the originators (although it's definitely better than some of the shows it inspired). Starlight is less of a deconstruction of a deconstruction and more of a metatheatrical glimpse into the nature of tragic narratives themselves, done from an extremely clever audience-centric perspective that dresses itself up as an allegory.
If you're looking for a 'deconstruction' of Madoka, I'd say Yuki Yuna Is A Hero does an excellent job in more ways than I can describe here, featuring a protagonist whose character arc is the polar opposite of Madoka's- she's a popular, well-adjusted kid who serves as the perfect magical girl and gets the chance to become a god, but hates the prospect of self-sacrifice and ends up just wanting to go home instead of becoming a martyr, along with a Kyubey-parallel that actually undergoes character development to the point where it sacrifices itself to save the magical girls instead of serving as an antagonist.
Thatguywholikestoship
Dec 20, 2020 12:28AM
Woah, what have I just stumbled upon?! These comments are so great! I could hear more about this for days!
I wish I could make such long, well-thought comments, even if it's just in my mother language.
@Kirin , I really like you. It was so fun to read all of that, especially since there aren't many Revue Starlight fans I know where I could hear/read their thoughts about the show and the characters and their relationships... Good stuff, great work!
I think I'm going to bookmark this page just so I can find my way here and not forget this happened.
Oh, and cute FutaKao picture btw.
Royyam
Jan 5, 2021 11:23PM
Todas necesitan terapia
Deltasa333
May 13, 2021 1:52AM
I will just comment here and put this picture into favorite because of all the well constructed comments :3
TctyaDDK Dec 18, 2020 9:08PM
MayaKuro is cute and MaHiKaren is sweet alright, but the borderline toxic ship FutaKao is my jam.
squishy-shi Dec 18, 2020 9:23PM
ah, finally, some good food
KS YuuHaru Dec 18, 2020 9:44PM
^^They are not toxic, maybe Kaoruko just tease Futaba in order to Futaba assault her...that's kinda toxic forget it
Kirin Dec 18, 2020 11:46PM
Futaba and Kaoruko always struck me as more codependent than purely toxic, in that they enable each other's worst tendencies (passivity and arrogance), but only around each other, because every other person in their lives has saddled them with impossible expectations and so they need some kind of validating outlet.
KareHika are childhood sweethearts, MayaKuro are rivals with benefits, JunNana are a newlywed couple with some dark secrets, but FutaKao is a ship that's in the late marital stage, simultaneously deeper and shallower than all the others. So it's only fitting how the resolution to their troubles is not sappy self-sacrifice, but a remembrance of what made them so twisted in the first place, and an agreement to not change something that's kept them happy and sane for so long.
Without Futaba, Kaoruko would've ended up like Maya, and without Kaoruko, Futaba would've had no purpose in life and no role in the show. Togetherness isn't the best ending- it's just a different kind of conflict for a different kind of plot, all within the greater scope of the disaster-lesbian-epic that is Starlight.
Rather long post, but this ship barely gets any discussion beyond the odd 'toxic' meme, so I wanted to share my perspective on it.
sofieru Dec 19, 2020 7:18AM
^ THANK YOU!
Also, "disaster-lesbian-epic" is the best description of Starlight I've come across.
TctyaDDK Dec 19, 2020 7:38AM
^^ I agree with all your points (though can JunNana really be considered newlywed, with Nana looped the year about 5 dozens times and still sticks to Junna? A tad obsessive, imo, but as with Homura, it's its own kind of great). That's why I said it's borderline toxic.
Kirin Dec 19, 2020 8:10AM
^ JunNana are interesting because they have a dynamic that instantly fits together and is arguably the most domestic in the show- they're not as competitive as MayaKuro, not as naïve as KareHika and not as mature as FutaKao. I call them newlyweds because they're at the arguable peak of their relationship- they've been together for long enough to fall in love with each other, clashed a few times over minor issues (like the Class Rep position), and know exactly what to say in order to support each other. There's no need to dramatically prove their love, and no need to renew it- it's incredibly stable, even within the revues, without the greenness or the rot.
Of course, this is all from Junna's perspective- in Nana's eyes, their relationship is essentially a chemical formula that's painstakingly recreated year over year, with everything measured out and maintained, isolated from new elements. It's a flower in an artificial greenhouse that feeds off itself, blooming without ever creating something new. The newlywed metaphor still works, because Nana is striving to keep them in that ideal space.
Your point about Homura is quite pertinent, because I think Starlight is what you'd call a post-Madoka show, made at a time when brutal deconstructions of optimistic narratives were quite popular. While it's more inspired by Utena in terms of aesthetics, the time-looping and the deal-offering giraffe were anime-original elements specifically meant to evoke Madoka. Nana is quite similar to Homura, Hikari wants to be both Homura and Madoka, and Karen hilariously just goes, "Guys, this isn't Madoka. Can y'all stop being so edgy?". It's basically what you'd get in a universe where Madoka as a show was super-popular and became adapted and imitated across every form of media, butchering and time-looping countless lesbians for tragedy, until a bunch of girls in 2018 took a look at the script and went, "Well, this is nice, but don't you think it's a bit too melodramatic, contrived and edgy for our time? Screw this, let's show all those edgy audiences that a happy ending can be simultaneously more intelligent and more entertaining than a bury-your-gays tragedy." And boy, did it work magnificently.
Also a rather long comment, but I will gush about Starlight till the end of time because it's a masterpiece.
KS YuuHaru Dec 19, 2020 11:05AM
^Yeah sounds kinda rough to hear that without Kaoruko, Futaba's role would be unfullfilled but i think that Kaoruko more than end like Maya, she would be more arrogant like an "extremist" version of her, it would be certain to say, that maybe nobody could stand her at some point, Futaba is like that part that put her limits in how she behave. In a few words without her she would be like those antagonist helpers that die or become good and after that become irrelevant for the plot. I like how you describe those pairing btw
SuperText Dec 19, 2020 11:30AM
^^So have we come full circle, deconstructing the deconstructions?
I believe "edginess" to be a fault in the writing rather than something inherent to the genre; PMMM was followed by many copycats that tried to recapture the same aesthetics on a superficial level, but I think the original iteration can still be appreciated in isolation.
Tragedy will always be a relevant genre; at the same time, since its birth society and human relationships have evolved quite a bit. This means that sometimes fictional lesbians might suffer and perish for the sake of artistic expression, but that shouldn't be labeled a case of "bury your gays" without a second thought.
Not trying to criticize anyone here, just voicing my opinion on the use of certain tropes nowadays.
last edited at Dec 19, 2020 11:31AM
Kirin Dec 19, 2020 3:14PM
^ Fair point. Although it's worth mentioning that shows that feature magical girls getting hurt, killed and deceived are as old as the genre itself, and Urobuchi's take on magical girls isn't anywhere near as original or groundbreaking as many fans believe (Phantom Thief Jeanne did the 'your familiar is actually evil all along' thing way back in the 90s, and the TV tropes page on Magical Girl Deconstructions lists various other examples that predated Madoka). This, ironically enough, would made Madoka closer to the 'copycats' than the originators (although it's definitely better than some of the shows it inspired). Starlight is less of a deconstruction of a deconstruction and more of a metatheatrical glimpse into the nature of tragic narratives themselves, done from an extremely clever audience-centric perspective that dresses itself up as an allegory.
If you're looking for a 'deconstruction' of Madoka, I'd say Yuki Yuna Is A Hero does an excellent job in more ways than I can describe here, featuring a protagonist whose character arc is the polar opposite of Madoka's- she's a popular, well-adjusted kid who serves as the perfect magical girl and gets the chance to become a god, but hates the prospect of self-sacrifice and ends up just wanting to go home instead of becoming a martyr, along with a Kyubey-parallel that actually undergoes character development to the point where it sacrifices itself to save the magical girls instead of serving as an antagonist.
Thatguywholikestoship Dec 20, 2020 12:28AM
Woah, what have I just stumbled upon?! These comments are so great! I could hear more about this for days!
I wish I could make such long, well-thought comments, even if it's just in my mother language.
@Kirin , I really like you. It was so fun to read all of that, especially since there aren't many Revue Starlight fans I know where I could hear/read their thoughts about the show and the characters and their relationships... Good stuff, great work!
I think I'm going to bookmark this page just so I can find my way here and not forget this happened.
Oh, and cute FutaKao picture btw.
Royyam Jan 5, 2021 11:23PM
Todas necesitan terapia
Deltasa333 May 13, 2021 1:52AM
I will just comment here and put this picture into favorite because of all the well constructed comments :3