My experience with the terms "top" and "bottom" is not consistent with this. Not saying your usage isn't valid, but I felt like it's worth mentioning I've known a lot of people who don't use the terms the way you are here. In my experience, people use "top" and "bottom" to either describe whether they prefer being dominant or submissive, or to talk about the actual physical location of the people in a sexual position. ;p You're actually the first person I've heard describe topping or bottoming as relating to who is performing the sexual act.

Ref: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-primary-differences-between-topping-bottoming-compared-Dominating-and-submitting-D-s

I fully acknowledge this is a distinction within the BDSM community and you may not be talking about dom/sub in that context.

I feel like that definition is problematic, as well? I mean, if person A grabs person B by the hair and climbs on her face, person B is "topping" by your definition, because they are the one "performing"?.

Actually, yes. It's called a service top. One who is giving the pleasure but is not in a dominant role. Conversely you can have power bottoms, people on the receiving end but still in control of the scene.

All of this is to say that sexual dynamics can be really varied and subversive! I think Yuu and Touko are both complex enough characters that we can imagine them in contradicting roles. Touko might be more demanding on the surface, but Yuu is someone who's eager to please and try new things. An interesting scenario IMO would be Touko directing Yuu on what she wants done to her and Yuu being the ever doting girlfriend taken along her senpai's whims.

The best ones are the ones that make their points in terms of specific elements of the series that is the topic of discussion.

This is true. I don't particularly care much for labeling characters as top/bottom or dom/sub or anything else. Although they are very much concepts that apply in real life to people of any gender and help a lot of LGBT folks communicate about their sexual preferences, I personally find the lexicon not useful.

I like that Yuu and Touko have struck a positive balance in their relationship after much personal growth, and whatever sexual life they go on to explore with each other I would hope they continue to foster that balance.

Isn't the top/bottom/switch thing a yaoi thing that people just kinda started using for het and yuri stories too? Despite not fully reflecting the reality of any of these?

Not really. I mean, it's definitely an actual thing, like Shadesofgreymoon said. It's a bigger deal in the yaoi fandom because it's about who's pitching and who's catching, if you catch my drift. But everybody falls on a preference spectrum, ranging from "I need to be dominant"----->"I prefer being dominant"----->"I can go either way"----->"I prefer being submissive"----->"I need to be submissive".

People all the way at the ends are outliers, but they exist. Many people just kind of prefer one or the other, and some people literally just DGAF or even prefer going back and forth. It's all valid.

I feel like pointing out that top/bottom and dom/sub are different concepts although they often intersect, i.e. tops are more likely to be dominant and bottoms are more likely to be submissive. But you can also have submissive tops and dominant bottoms. Top/bottom is just referring to who's doing the sexual act upon whom, while dom/sub is about who's controlling the scenario and pace.

This doesn't take away from your point that the top/bottom concept is not exclusive to heterosexual relationships. It's a way to describe sexual dynamics in all relationship types regardless of the genders involved.

It would be nice to have manga examples of femme/butch, femme/femme, and butch/butch relationships. Here’s my contribution:

Sasameki Koto: femme/butch.

Hold on, which one was but butch in Sasameki Koto? The feminine girl with the long hair and fragile feelings who happened to be good at martial arts? Or the forthright, openly lesbian pretty blonde girl? They both came off pretty femmey to me.

Perhaps the beta couple? Tomoe seemed like a soft butch to me while Miyako was a short princess.

I'm deceased

wtf this is terrifying

SPOILER ALERT

If this is legit then tag your spoilers dude. Not cool to just leave them out in the open like that.

Although it wasn’t me who did it, how do you properly tag spoiler comments to where they’re blotted out? (I need a little review—thanks)

There is a pinned thread for this at the top of the first page of this forum.

last edited at Dec 31, 2018 1:45AM

Fuck you Homura, you and your fake world!

Here's your yearly reminder that homura did nothing wrong. Thank you and happy holidays!

is the taboo aspect wat makes yuri interesting in the first place for you guys?
i wonder if in the future it won’t be as special

No, I just think girls are cuter.

PC: dark souls 3 (mostly jolly coop at this point), destiny 2, elder scrolls online (although taking an extended break from the recent patches), don't starve together

Switch: Pokemon let's go

I think it's totally fine to read characters in particular ways and give them a label(s) so that you can better relate to or better understand the story from your individual point of view. It seems like a lot of people here relate to either Maki or Yuu in terms of being aro/ace so I'd say that's pretty cool.

And anyway, it's none of my business how others read characters as. I'm just here to dispel any potential misconceptions about aromanticism and asexuality.

Also another thing, I didn't think I could relate so hard to Yuu, but she really feels like she's asexual.

I see multiple people stating that she's asexual.
To me the only character who really seems to be asexual is Maki-kun. Huh...
Then again I don't know shit about asexuality. D:

Just be careful to not conflate asexuality with aromanticism. With the bit of character intro for Maki, he could be read as both. But Yuu seems to have developed romantic feelings so we can cross one out. Or perhaps she is only Touko-romantic, who knows.

Also , if you ask me, I'd say that for someone to be aromantic but not asexual is weirder than the other way around. But that may be just my preconceptions.

But objectively, neither case is weird. Let those preconceptions take a backseat to enjoying the variety of human experience :)

Notice, by the way, that Touko actually likes taking criticism in the theater group; since she's the most inexperienced, nobody expects her to be perfect, including herself.

Just another indication that she's a nice, talented chick with some notable hangups she needs to deal with, not a psychological time bomb. (I'd say that she was a bit of that, but Yuu helped defuse her.)

Of course, I'm sure Nakatani never intended to write her to be developing NPD. I'm just commenting that lack of self esteem and feelings of inferiority are not antithetical to being narcissistic.

The fact that Touko is adjusting post school play and willing to take criticism means she wasn't on the path to narcissism. However, one could easily write a dark spin on her dysfunctional self image (might make for an interesting derivative work). Narcissistic people won't necessarily engage in any abusive behavior at first. They can manipulate you into a feeling of comfort around them and then turn around and demand attention and praise from you, becoming more and more unreasonable over time.

Edit: just to clarify again that I think it could be interesting to explore how Touko's self image can develop into narcissism in an alternate set of events, not that the current story in anyway indicates she is narcissistic

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 8:54PM

The narcissist thinks that they're fundamentally different than everyone else because they're superior to them; we're talking about someone who feels essentially inferior. But it's still all about them.

While not a diagnostic criterion, low self esteem is actually quite common in sub categories of narcissism. At the root, covert narcissists feel a deep sense of inadequacy and are hypersensitive to criticism and shame, so projecting superiority over and degrading other people is a defense mechanism.

Narcissism is basically dysfunctional regulation of self image and self esteem, so under different circumstances I can see how Touko could develop towards that. Thankfully she has people around her to steer her on a much better path.

Edit: better phrasing would be that narcissism is one "evolution" of dysfunctional regulation of self esteem/image

last edited at Oct 29, 2018 6:06PM

This art looks fluffy. I like

That’s got part of it, but most of their examples are about creating emotional distance by treating the other person badly, often while still being around the other person. (That’s kind of the point—they can’t leave for whatever reason, so they must make the other person hate them in order to break the romantic bond.)

Noble Idiocy is basically a “leaving” trope that almost always involves physical distance, and while it can involve an active attempt to make the other person dislike them (as it does here), it doesn’t have to.

I think the trope description fits the leaving part as well. The examples are pretty lacking though, you're right. It's glaringly missing Asian dramas, which are of course the notorious users of this trope.

last edited at Oct 25, 2018 10:31PM

I know I promised you a rant about my least favorite romantic trope, so here it is:

It's so satisfying seeing a kindred soul. Also, I had no knowledge of the name of the Noble Idiocy trope, although we see it pretty much everywhere. Funnily enough, you'd think such a common trope would have an entry on Tv Tropes

Yeah, that term is the coin of the realm in Kdrama land. I also was surprised not to see it on TV Tropes—maybe they call it something else, but I couldn’t find it on a quick search.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BreakHisHeartToSaveHim

I've always wondered what sets romance apart from just an emotionally and intellectually intimate friendship. People keep telling me you can have asexual romances, but the only thing I can see that really sets a romance apart from an emotionally intimate friendship is the sexual dimension to the relationship.

The only difference I see between somebody I am close intimate friends with and somebody I am in a romantic relationship with is the fact there is a physical dimension and attraction present in the case of a romance. If you go by the definition I see some people use which includes non sexual but emotionally intimate relationships as being romantic then I think these two girl's qualify.

I have the exact same question, but from the other perspective. What sets romance apart from an emotionally and intellectually intimate friendship? I experience no difference between the two. I think that's one way to look at what it means to have an asexual romance.

To someone who experiences sexual attraction, the sexual dimension may be an integral part of a relationship. To someone who doesn't experience sexual attraction, the sexual dimension can be as important as a pebble kicked onto the driveway of some stranger's house you pass by, i.e. not at all relevant to a relationship.

The outrage I was referring to is the one that started after the manipulation of women's test scores came to light. It made people talk more about sexism in Japan, and I have to try very hard no to take whom the spin-off was given to as "this is a hit, it's a miracle a woman pulled it off, now let's give the spin-off to that guy at our company, it's a given he'll do a better job than a woman would." I hope it's just me being too negative, at least when it comes to half of that, but I don't have too high hopes for how good it'll be...

Geez. That is super disappointing to learn about.

As someone who plays the violin, this is a giant load of (cute) BS lol

This is cute and all but the badly drawn breasts keep putting me off more than they should.

imagine she just has a really shitty bra

I did that and had a good laugh. Thanks for the tip.

Cute

That guy is living dangerously though. Courting two women is a good way to end up with none.

I take offense at that.

This made me chuckle, thanks.

This bathroom shtick is rubbing me the wrong way. I hope that manager dies

Christ.