I'm still a little confused about whether this character is supposed to be borderline or not, and if she is, why it isn't a bigger deal in her relationship.

isn't the one and her and Reiichi are just friends in her present

Then why lie about not seeing Reiichi since their marriage ?

The only things I can think of are, Reiichi has confided in Risako about how bad his marriage is OR Reiichi made a pass at Risako. Either of those would lead Risako to want to avoid telling Kaoru about it without being cheating.

That scene where Kaoru's sick is written so coyly; it's annoying. I've seen a kabillion scenes like that, where someone talks about "these feelings for someone" and we think we know how the story's going but then whooaaaa it was Shiori's picture inside the locket all along! If Risako was straightforwardly just into Reiichi and that was it, it'd be very easy to have her state it in dialogue without all the ambiguity.
Thing is here, though... I can't tell how savvy the author thinks the readers are. Risako being in love with Kaoru has been strongly, strongly suggested by this point (and she's not wearing her glasses when she goes to visit her, either) but it's gotten to the point that the twist will be such a foregone conclusion, I'm concerned it'll be a double fake-out and she was never in love with Kaoru at all. (this would be stupid, and not just because less yuri)

This chapter does give us insight to Risako, though, especially that sick scene. Her strategy to help Kaoru sucks because she has no idea what is going on because she's like 16. "Hmm, I feel bad when she pays attention to Reiichi, but I feel great around her the rest of the time. I know, if I pull his attention away, there won't be a problem anymore!" She's flailing, but she looks so together, you'd never guess it from the outside.

oh you've gotta be kidding me.

I'm actually really confused. You agree the story is focusing on different things at different times, but you disagree with the interpretation that it doesn't just center on Uta?

As I expected, the definition of “focus” is to be put upon the rack until it screams.

Like, POV character? "screen"time? Lines? How abstract do you think I'm being about it? How was this supposed to be a productive comment? What am I supposed to say back to have a productive discussion? What are you asking from me (or anyone) with this? I feel like I'm at a loss for how to take this anywhere good.

And like... your tone does a little bit communicate a lot of negativity. Maybe "suffer" and "hate" are overwrought and you're not meaning to seem that way, and I don't know how I come across, but I do see Warlock and expect something awfully negative.

Lol. Seriously? Did you actually ever read the comics that image derives from?

Yes I did, and I have no clue what your point is here?

last edited at Jan 12, 2020 4:48PM

You seem to maintain that if I think your argument is flimsy and unconvincing that I’m somehow “blind” to the truth.

The Uta thing is a case in point: in fact, my “opinion” about whether Uta is (or has been positioned as) the protagonist of this series is completely irrelevant, but when you say that readers are “misunderstanding” the series as being about Uta, that’s at best, condescending. It’s hardly my “opinion” or “interpretation” that the vast bulk of the actual content of series has been (mostly directly but also indirectly) concerned with Uta and her friends, and close to 100% of the marketing of the series has depicted it as Uta’s story, so if poor benighted readers are “bizarrely misinterpreting” the story, they’ve had plenty of assistance in that regard from the series itself.

Obviously, what you see as “different characters being focused on” I see as a story “wandering around without revealing a whole hell of a lot that we didn’t already know or could infer.”

I'm actually really confused. You agree the story is focusing on different things at different times, but you disagree with the interpretation that it doesn't just center on Uta? Volume 1 focused mostly on Uta and to a lesser extent Kaoru, volume 2 focused mostly on Kaoru and pigtail-girl, volume 3 focused mostly on Kaoru and to a lesser extent Uta, volume 4 focused mostly on Uta and pigtail girl (and random girl whose name I don't remember), volume 5 was Uta and Kaoru pretty much equally, and volume 5 looks to be all Kaoru and Risako. So if any character is most central, it's Kaoru. You could argue the drama or the tension is centered on Uta's feelings (I disagree; I think it's Kaoru's marriage), but it's not true that Uta is the center of everything and thus all this Risako stuff is some sort of distraction. Glancing through, she's not even POV character as much as Kaoru is.

Look, all I'm saying is, if people want to get together in these comments and talk about their various interpretations and speculate on what might happen, that's hard if people act like their own subjective responses are somehow more objective than other people's.

And that “misreading” remark was at least as “productive” as the person speciously claiming to know that I “hated” the series and must “suffer” when I read it. Not a high “productivity” bar, to be sure.

But two wrongs don't make a right?

And like... your tone does a little bit communicate a lot of negativity. Maybe "suffer" and "hate" are overwrought and you're not meaning to seem that way, and I don't know how I come across, but I do see Warlock and expect something awfully negative.

Why did she "why is my heart beating this way?" at the end when she's clearly shown mega-crushing on the coworker earlier?

But I think this is due to people's main misunderstanding of the story: that Uta is the protagonist and her crush on Kaoru is the main driver of conflict. If you look at it through that lens, then of course all this Kaoru stuff is bafflingly off-topic. But if you look at it such that it's an ensemble (or Kaoru's actually the main character) then the structure makes a lot more sense (Kaoru's been in unrequited love her whole life too.)

The fact that 28 chapters into the story readers can’t agree on who, if anyone, the protagonist might be and what the underlying principle of the story structure is intended to communicate strongly suggests that, at best, this is not an author who is control of their material.

I mean, I think part of the problem here is that some people just have it in their heads it's Uta, because she was first and she's the one with the tragic love that could get paid off.

It frankly strikes me as bizarre that we go entire volumes where different characters are focused on, and anyone thinks this isn't meant to be an ensemble. You could think it's not done WELL, but I don't get continuing to assume Uta's the sole protagonist when we're currently on a volume that's about Kaoru's backstory.

I think it’s preposterous to claim that a belief that the character of Uta and her relationship with Kaoru was supposed to be central to the story is some sort of “misunderstanding” on the part of the audience. Of the covers to the four volumes so far, two feature Uta alone, one features Kaoru, and one has the two of them embracing. Until she was put on a bus a couple of chapters ago, Uta was obviously the central character of the story—even Chapter 26 is entitled “The Girl Who Wasn’t There.”

See? It's just stuck in your head. Yeah, Uta's obviously AN important character, but the tension is about Kaoru and always has been. Kaoru is the CENTER of the story, the driver of the drama, even as we focus on different perspectives.

I also note that once again defenders of the so-called big picture of this series have nothing to say about the high-schooler side characters, since even if you can hypothetically stretch a point to the breaking point and beyond to say that the themes of those episodes echo those of the main story, I haven’t heard anyone make a coherent argument that they amount to more than a distraction and occasional comic relief.

I personally don't get that pigtail girl either. But your complaints aren't "hey that pigtail girl's thing doesn't fit," it's "this story is a mess and none of the elements add up to anything!" and to do that, you're putting all the Kaoru stuff into the same box as pigtail girl.

(I still think the pigtail girl THEMATICALLY is meant to add something, but I simply don't understand what her deal is; if she's ace or what.)

Also I've mentioned this several times, but I sorta agreed with your "mystery box" criticism until I went back and read the chapters in blocks rather than the way they're coming out. You keep saying info is dangled over us and left hanging, but looking back, that does not appear to be happening across volumes.

Your powers of misreading are profound.

Also, like, you couldn't possibly think it's productive to say things like this, could you?

I don't know if you mean to do this, but you project an attitude where you're some blank slate without preconceptions, and therefore anyone whose interpretation differs from yours is making it up or pushing things onto the story. It comes across like you'd rather declare your own superiority than actually discuss the story and the author's potential intentions, and it makes you blind to the stuff YOU'RE assuming that feeds into YOUR interpretation.

[snip for space]

Then the only thing we need to figure out the puzzle is Risako's intention and whether Reiichi did cheat. That's the only thing we need to complete the puzzle. But even after we complete that puzzle, the actual final arc of the plot revolves entirely around Uta's and Kaoru's decisions, which they will make regardless of what the whole finished puzzle tells us.

That’s a very rational and plausible reading. But as you indicate, if the final arc really will be about Uta and Kaoru’s feelings for each other and where they end up, the whole Reiichi/Risako business is, while not irrelevant, just background plot infrastructure to that relationship.

The information-flow problem I’ve been harping on is really only a byproduct of my real main complaint about this story—a lack of narrative focus and structural proportion. Things get lots of attention that ultimately don’t seem to be important (the antics of the Three Stooges of Adolescent Lesbian Love being the prime example). Meanwhile, Uta seems so removed from the current story that her reappearance would be nearly as surprising as when the toxic Mom came sweeping in out of nowhere.

Who at this point thinks that Uta getting together with Kaoru is a good idea, and, whether they get together or not, does the story actually seem to be moving toward the two of them resolving their relationship one way or the other?

But I think this is due to people's main misunderstanding of the story: that Uta is the protagonist and her crush on Kaoru is the main driver of conflict. If you look at it through that lens, then of course all this Kaoru stuff is bafflingly off-topic. But if you look at it such that it's an ensemble (or Kaoru's actually the main character) then the structure makes a lot more sense (Kaoru's been in unrequited love her whole life too.) And since Kaoru's like a billion times more interesting than Uta is, that's a relief, too. I'll laugh at how silly it is if Uta ends up with the spare single lesbian whose name I can't even remember, but I don't think we're supposed to be reading this story as shippers, hoping for the central couple to get together.

The other thing is, people way overstate the importance of these supposed mysteries, because of the way we're getting the chapters. But am I misunderstanding what "volume" means in the presentation, here? Aren't we supposed to get Chapter 26-chapter 30 all at once, instead of spread months apart? So this speculation about Risako's motives is supposed to just be happening for a few minutes in our head before it gets resolved in the next couple of chapters. It's not some big mystery meant to bring us back.

"Secret sad stoic lesbian who will fall on her own sword to protect the heart of the straight girl she loves" is a yuri trope

I doubt she had Reiichi confess to her to "protect Kaoru". This actually would hurt Kaoru more, because Reiichi dating Risako is not only Kaoru basically getting rejected, but also getting betrayed by her friend. I mean, dating someone your friend has expressed she likes for a long time is even worse than getting rejected. Also, if Kaoru had the chance to properly get rejected back then, maybe that would help her get over Reiichi.

Kaoru gets hurt more, but NOT because Reiichi never loved her... because her stone-hearted evil friend stole him for no reason. Risako wants to spare Kaoru the specific pain of Reiichi saying he never loved her.

This obviously backfired, as we know in the present. It could be ironic that Risako was annoyed by Kaoru never taking a stand, but then at the last second she couldn't bear to see the band-aid get ripped off. Or, she actually DIDN'T mean for Kaoru to overhear, and she just wanted Reiichi to distance himself from Kaoru so Kaoru could get over him. The staging of the scene is ambiguous: it seems weird Kaoru was in a position to overhear just by chance (especially when Risako is shown as having SOMETHING up her sleeve about this) but I guess it's possible.

The alternative is that she really IS just a cold-hearted bitch who stole the guy her friend was in love with and then openly admitted she doesn't even like him, but again, I just don't think it's very believable to have someone so black-and-white in a story that's about character nuance.

last edited at Jan 8, 2020 2:54PM

Also, I know this isn't determinant, but they did have sex. I guess you can have sex with a woman even if you're not into women, but I think that's at least indicative that Nika can go both ways.

Wait, when did they have sex? They slept together in c6, but pretty sure they didn't have sex.

I mean, it's not explicitly stated, but reread Chapter 8. What do you think happens immediately after this?

Maybe they just make out and then take a bath together. I'm assuming that's supposed to be a cue that sex follows.

Knowing yuri manga, I kind of assumed we were just supposed to think they innocently smooched and that was it, but you're right, it is ambiguous.

I just don’t see how this supposedly disengaged and hyper-rational Risako squares with the bulk of what we know about the rest of the story.

But who is it that supposed Risako is a hyper-rational disengaged ice queen?

Is this supposed to be some kind of joke, or did you really not read the chapter?

Kaoru: “[Risako] would always make decisions based of some rational thinking.”

Kaoru: “It seemed like her surroundings couldn’t handle this girl with cold eyes behind her glasses.”

Risako: “Unlike Kaoru, I don’t get serious, or even feel emotional about anything. / I think a lot about how much more fun it would be if I could live like [Kaoru].”

So where does your question come from?

I assumed she was seducing Reiichi there. "Oh, if ONLY someone could help me FEEL THINGS!"

Yet another attempt to compel this story to make sense by assuming that the evidence of the text means something other than what it says.

What scene or statement in this story depicts Risako as being emotional about anything?

Why on earth are you phrasing this in such a hostile way?

Anyway, she's emotional about Kaoru plenty, just not high-arousal. She's nothing but meaningful pauses around Kaoru. And she has emotional reactions left and right during this very chapter, just again, not high arousal.

The key to my interpretation is she takes her glasses off. That's a big symbol for her. She has "cold eyes behind her glasses" implying she's hiding something underneath them, and she specifically wears them to make dudes stop paying attention to her pretty face. She knows how hot people think she is. When she pointedly takes them off in front of Reiichi, that suggests she's looking pretty for him on purpose.

So, this dude who her best friend is piningly and stupidly in unreciprocated love with has just insulted that friend and made it clear he doesn't think he'll ever be interested. A little while later, Risako (who's been stringing Reiichi along) hears that Kaoru plans to seriously for real confess to Reiichi and will "be crushed," and Risako arranges a moment where she and Reiichi agree to date while Kaoru watches. Now Kaoru can just be mad at Risako: she avoided being crushed. And as a bonus, Reiichi agreed to distance himself, so even if Kaoru was gonna chicken out, they're separated.

"Secret sad stoic lesbian who will fall on her own sword to protect the heart of the straight girl she loves" is a yuri trope. "androidlike cipher who can't feel emotions (except the emotion of jealousy towards people who have emotions) and who goes out of their way to hurt her best friend for no reason" is a possible interpretation, I guess, but it sure doesn't seem plausible to me.

Also my point was that Kurumi already asked her about it and she got a "I don't know, I want to give it a shot" answer and she agreed to that. What else she's supposed to do? Ask Nika every week or something on her thoughts and if she's gay yet? They're dating. It will either work out or not. Constantly asking Nika for feedback and pressuring her to
It really sounds more like you're focusing on it so much, because you're afraid Nika might not be capable of developing love for Kurumi, and that would mean sad ending so you want to be prepared for that. And again, whatever she's capable of dating another girl, as in, being straight or bi, is the entire premise of the story. I was implying in my previous post that you're supposed to wait and see how Nika is going to solve those questions and what answer she'll come up with. Also again, one way to figure out if you can date other girl is, you know, trying to date other girl?

No (I don't super think the relationship as set up now would be healthy). I'm saying the themes of the story confuse me. Is this about a girl who can't get over someone, or is about a girl who isn't actually that gay? Those aren't remotely the same thing.

I just don’t see how this supposedly disengaged and hyper-rational Risako squares with the bulk of what we know about the rest of the story.

But who is it that supposed Risako is a hyper-rational disengaged ice queen?

Is this supposed to be some kind of joke, or did you really not read the chapter?

Kaoru: “[Risako] would always make decisions based of some rational thinking.”

Kaoru: “It seemed like her surroundings couldn’t handle this girl with cold eyes behind her glasses.”

Risako: “Unlike Kaoru, I don’t get serious, or even feel emotional about anything. / I think a lot about how much more fun it would be if I could live like [Kaoru].”

So where does your question come from?

I assumed she was seducing Reiichi there. "Oh, if ONLY someone could help me FEEL THINGS!"

That's still doesn't explain why Reichii lie about being out of the town. Kaoru's accident was because he was there with Risako and she spot them. And here, Risako lie about that encounter. If it wasn't cheating then why she would lie about that matter ? Did she think Kaoru still doesn't remember about the accident ?

I think it makes sense that either 1. Reiichi has confided in Risako about the state of his marriage, and Risako has promised secrecy, or 2. Reiichi lied because either he did something embarrassing (like make a pass at Risako) or just doesn't want to make Kaoru jealous, and Risako lied because she wants to believably make Kaoru think Reiichi is cheating, to basically pull the same trick she pulled in high school where she's the villain but Reiichi looks bad enough Kaoru finally gets over him.

karp posted:

But she needs to establish that she's bi. And the AUTHOR needs to establish she's bi.

1. That was first thing Kurumi asked Nika and she gave her honest answer, so as I said before, continuing to question her at this point would be kinda rude, don't you think?
2. Whatever what Nika feels for Kurumi is friendship or love is kinda the entire premise of the series?

The point isn't it doesn't count if Nika is bi; the point is that Nika's answer is vague and does not really address the question. "Oh huh, I mean I want to get to know you better so let's date?" If she'd said, "Yeah, I guess I don't mind dating girls, but I've never really met a girl I liked before" that'd be different (but that might be an issue of the translation, though).

It reads to me like this manga is addressing Nika's sexuality in a CODED way, by making the central conflict about this one particular guy rather than about whether or not she's actually into girls. It makes the whole thematic meaning confusing, because it's a huge difference if a bi girl is philia towards another girl she's trying to date, or if a straight girl is trying to turn the philia she's capable of into eros.

Risako's probably vaguely in love with Kaoru, but more importantly, Risako can't stand bullshit and beating around the bush (which is Kaoru's main personality trait). She clearly does not think Reiichi is worth all this time and attention, and she's willing to be the villain if that's what it takes.

I think it is verrrrrrry unlikely Reiichi is cheating with her, not least because she was wearing her glasses when she was with him, and her glasses are a symbol of her being like "don't pay attention to my pretty face, assholes." (as an adult, she takes them off when around Kaoru. And when Reiichi is a huge dick and says Kaoru's "not very bright," that's what incites Risako to take her glasses off and seduce him away.)

So the only question is, is she playing the martyr and deliberately making Kaoru think Reiichi's cheating with her to try the same gambit she tried in high school and finally get her over him? Or is she just one of Reiichi's few friends and so knows he confides in her about his crap marriage?

Honestly, Kaoru/Risako makes way more sense to me than Kaoru/Uta. There's a random stray lesbian hanging around Uta's friend group, right?

Okay, but like, don't you think at least ONCE some sort of discussion like "are you even into girls?" would happen? Why is this all focused on her feelings for her childhood friend when that's kinda not really the main issue to get to first?

I guess that IS the main issue for them. Which is nice, really, I like reading stories where people don't constantly question a bisexual character's orientation.

But she needs to establish that she's bi. And the AUTHOR needs to establish she's bi. As of now, it's like the various characters' genders aren't things that affect anything, and that's weird. As it is, I can't imagine Kurumi would really be saying, "Go to him because he's your childhood friend," and not "Go to him because you're probably actually straight."

Okay, but like, don't you think at least ONCE some sort of discussion like "are you even into girls?" would happen? Why is this all focused on her feelings for her childhood friend when that's kinda not really the main issue to get to first?

The husband's move with the sister was about springing the details on the sister in the most shocking way possible. It's all pretty nebulous and vague in his head, but he has a sense that as many people are in Ayano's ear telling her that what she did was crazy and weird, the better (especially if they're from her 'side'). He knows that Aya's family doesn't like him or his family, and he senses they're way more open and less repressed than he's used to. Under normal circumstances, they'd be not kicking up all that much of a fight about divorce.

I doubt this is some big nefarious move to hurt his wife; he's clearly making this up as he goes. His family is about secrets and power. Growing up with his mom, he's learned that the way to handle things is to tightly control them so no one finds out the ways things have gone wrong. A big part of him is trying to suck Aya away from her more open family and into his, where shame will keep her quiet.

Of course, the other interesting layer is that he hates his family, too. He knows that whole deal sucks, even as he's acting it out now... that's why he's usually so passive (he rightfully resents his awful mom, but he knows it does no good to pick a fight, so he just lies down). It means he could go in a lot of different directions moving forward.

last edited at Dec 31, 2019 3:04PM

Every chapter of this breathtakingly rendered slow-motion trainwreck leaves me needing more. This was definitely not a virtuous, or even smart, move by the husband, but you have to figure...he is probably desperate to talk about this to somebody, and - in typical male fashion - if he has any other male friends, he would probably not be comfortable admitting to any of them that his wife cheated on him, let alone with a woman.

And something else: he probably expects his sister-in-law to relish having something "over" a family member and would turn on Aya, because that's what would happen in HIS family. It doesn't occur to him that, push come to shove, she'll side with supporting her sister.

Ohhhh there is something delightfully horrible about well-written passive aggression. The husband's move deserves a chef kiss.

Great juxtaposition there, too. All these games all the other characters are playing, and then Akari just straightforwardly says what she feels and what she wants.

But if getting the kid to come to school was the teacher's job, that cat is already out of the bag! All the main character's friends already know, and they don't seem to think it's very scandalous at all.

Except the students wouldnt know that it was part of a deal? I think you are just trying not to understand it at this point.
If Ayaka just happened to somehow convince Honda to come to school, then that was a coincidence and out of the teacher's power. If Ayaka did it specifically because the teacher told her to for a price, you should see the difference.
This isn't rocket science.

You yourself said, a few messages ago, that it's common for students to do work for teachers, including being asked to go to other students' houses. If the issue is that the teacher was overt and explicit about offering payment, then why didn't she just not do that?

If the plot depends on one of the characters unnecessarily causing everyone trouble because she's a kooky weirdo, that should be mentioned (and also that character should actually be FUNNY).

But why wouldn't she get something out of it? She's going above-and-beyond, that is exactly the kind of thing teachers write recs for qasasasdokljhasdkjfsdkljbdfa

people im starting to get the sense the premise for this manga was not actually very well thought-out

You know I already explained this back in chapter freaking one right? I'll just sum it up one more time, just for you:
1. Getting skipping students to school is the adults' job. This teacher was specifically tasked with doing that.
2. Making a student do the job of the teacher is not acceptable in this scenario. It makes the teacher look incompetent and like she pushes work on her students. Everything has a hierarchy in Japan.
3. Therefore the teacher makes this a secret deal. The compensation itself makes this a corrupt deal, because giving a student advantages for doing teacher's jobs is even worse (it's no better than bribery). This kind of deal reflects badly on both of them, but if this came out the teacher would spin the entire thing into her own favor and put the blame on Ayaka. "She blackmailed me by asking for a recommendation if she brought this problem student to school or she would tell everyone that I failed". That way it could even look like Ayaka and Honda are working together to gain credit.
4. This is why if anyone found out about it Ayaka would get the consequences of this deal, so she is trying to keep Honda silent by appeasing her.

I'll say it again, this kind of bullshit could only happen in a super uptight society like Japan, where the public image and hierarchy are more important than who is right. Adults can be absolute scum that will try anything to get bullied students expunged so they won't stain their track record for example. This is the society that forces naturally chestnut haired students to dye their hair black. You really need to understand what you're dealing with here.

But if getting the kid to come to school was the teacher's job, that cat is already out of the bag! All the main character's friends already know, and they don't seem to think it's very scandalous at all.

Also wait EVERYONE JUST KNOWS the class rep got the girl to come to class?!

What but

But

But YOU'RE KEEPING THAT SECRET THAT IS THE WHOLE PREMISE

The secret is that she's getting something out of it, not that she got her to come to school.

But why wouldn't she get something out of it? She's going above-and-beyond, that is exactly the kind of thing teachers write recs for qasasasdokljhasdkjfsdkljbdfa

people im starting to get the sense the premise for this manga was not actually very well thought-out

This manga is weird. It's like a challenge: What would believable, complicated characters do if they were in a hoary old yuri trope?

Also wait EVERYONE JUST KNOWS the class rep got the girl to come to class?!

What but

But

But YOU'RE KEEPING THAT SECRET THAT IS THE WHOLE PREMISE