Midori IS an idiot. That much is a fact. And I said both characters were shitty and deserved each other. I never said she deserved to be abused. Paint the whole picture and don't lie by omission.

"I don't think she deserves to be abused, but she deserves to be with her abuser" is one hell of a technicality.

Bearing in mind my held view was that she wasn't being abused prior to the recent chapter, Tazune was just a dick****

last edited at Feb 26, 2020 12:53PM

What in the world are people cheering for someone who just show domestical abuse ?

There are plenty of men on this forum

And to think somebody tried to get me banned just for saying people are too soft on the female characters.

You agreed with Tazune in saying Midori is 'just an idiot with a cute face' and said Midori deserves what's happening to her, then acted smug when you were given exactly what you wanted and shown from Tazune's perspective that he's an abusive shitheel and people expected a bit of humility after being so obstinate. Maybe it's not that people are 'too soft on the female characters'. :V

Midori IS an idiot. That much is a fact. And I said both characters were shitty and deserved each other. I never said she deserved to be abused. Paint the whole picture and don't lie by omission.

That said, I mean are they wrong? Men might find themselves sympathizing with Tazune for whatever reason, and I dunno, just see him as a rude But Not Abusive guy.

Yes they are wrong, unless you've done a ratio of men to women perspective on this forum? Besides, its quite hypocritical to hammer on about misogyny and then turn around and claim men sympathise with and excuse domestic abusers.

Beyond that, god I can't believe this thread for this series. After pages of victim blaming, saying Midori deserves what is happening to her, and arguing over whether or not a dude who's raising red flag after red flag is an abuser (I still don't even see why people would even care to defend him. He's not real, y'all.) And once we got a 100% clear From The Guy Himself perspective chapter that shows he's not just a mundane asshole, he's a misogynistic dipshit with some heavy chips on his shoulder, people act like it's some act of horrible story telling or whatever. Go find a different manga y'all, because this one clearly isn't

Nobody cares about Tazune. Nobody read this manga for Tazune. We're on a YURI website. What people, myself included, were pointing out is that Midori is a shitty person herself and when we pointed that out you all instead found reasons to excuse her behaviour and I played devil's advocate to do the same with Tazune. You were all just pissed off because I dared to suggest Tazune may have the same reasons you used to defend Midori. I may pick you up on that reading something else suggestion though because this manga is full of a bunch of hateful caricatures. The most interesting thing about it has been the discussion board.

What in the world are people cheering for someone who just show domestical abuse ?

There are plenty of men on this forum

And to think somebody tried to get me banned just for saying people are too soft on the female characters.

Satisfied now, Starknight? You wanted some clarity, you got it. In any case, remember that a depiction of a character is not an endorsement of them. Tazune's character is being explicated, not excused. We are meant to hate and revile him. All the manga has done by showing us this is answering the question "How does the average person become evil?", and people's visceral reactions to it are because they know it works this way.

Did my perspective of "wait and see" really piss you people off so much that you had me up in your hearts for days? Yes, I'm satisfied with new information that give more context. Why wouldn't I be? God! Still don't like anybody in this manga except Maki.

last edited at Feb 25, 2020 7:35PM

I maintain that calling her an idiot once and telling her she spaces out is not abusive.

Be sure to include that information in your dating-app profile.

Would rather not. Might pull in a Midori.

Look, I appreciate the effort you've gone through here, but you haven't shown me evidence of abuse. You've shown me that Tazune is insensitive, clearly thinks lesser of his fiancee, and the two clearly aren't in love, which is something Maki also picks up on, but nowhere have you shown me that he has emotionally abuses her as seems to be the consensus here. It may very well be revealed in a chapter or two that he does in other instances, or he might begin to but within the five chapters so far he simply hasn't abused her. So, I'm just gonna put an end to this here and say lets agree to disagree because its looking like people want to see me as a villain simply for not jumping to Midori's side despite her own stupidity and selfishness.

I agree with this. They aren't kids. Midori obviously wanted something out of him, and he took advantage of her weakness. I am not sure what the point is of making him seem like a real person that is kind of a douche, though. It's easier to just make him evil so that the reasons behind the eventual breakup don't matter. No one wants to read about a man in yuri manga.

Thank you. That last line is what I think the root cause of all the sensationalism of their relationship thus far is.

"you haven't shown me evidence of abuse. You've shown me that Tazune is insensitive, clearly thinks lesser of his fiancee,"

So what would be convincing evidence of emotional abuse, assuming we never get his POV and internal thoughts/intentions?

I agree that routinely insulting her, regardless of his intentions, would be abusive. Particularly if she opens up to him and he disregards her feelings aggressively. However, I maintain that calling her an idiot once and telling her she spaces out is not abusive. Its rude and insensitive but its not abusive. Neither of them are children and both are just as insensitive as the other and yet Midori for the simple fact that she's a POV character in a Yuri manga is immediately victimised by the forum. We don't need a POV from Tazune to make any inferences about the type of person he is, that's been made clear, but we need a lot more than what has been shown to claim she's any sort of victim here.

Look, I appreciate the effort you've gone through here, but you haven't shown me evidence of abuse. You've shown me that Tazune is insensitive, clearly thinks lesser of his fiancee, and the two clearly aren't in love, which is something Maki also picks up on, but nowhere have you shown me that he has emotionally abuses her as seems to be the consensus here. It may very well be revealed in a chapter or two that he does in other instances, or he might begin to but within the five chapters so far he simply hasn't abused her. So, I'm just gonna put an end to this here and say lets agree to disagree because its looking like people want to see me as a villain simply for not jumping to Midori's side despite her own stupidity and selfishness.

What's obvious here is you don't actually understand what emotional abuse even is.

Or false equivalence.

I let it go but, sure, be a dick about it.

He isn't abusive. He's insensitive, possessive, and a dickhead, but he has not abused anybody. No matter how often you say it, it won't make it true. Show me an example or stop saying it.

Oh fine, link time.

Exhibit A - note also Maki immediately catching on there being something wrong here
Exhibit B - note also how Doumyou visibly catches on something being off and pauses

That's the occasions where he gratuitously and deliberately outright insults her in front of friends and associates - and indeed so far we've been shown he appears to only do that in such contexts.
Which... implies a fair few things concerning why he does it, none of which reflect well on his character.

There's Hell of a lot more varyingly subtler snubs that together paint a picture of him pretty much plain holding her in uncaring contempt except insofar she remains 'available and desirable' for him to stick his dick in. To wit:
1) - can't be fucked to extend even the basic courtesy of the stereotypical husband or boyfriend to accompany their SO on something she feels is important (in this case related to their goddamn wedding) and politely smile and nod along
2) - well I suppose it can be counted as a merit of sorts that he isn't controlling and morbidly jealous at least... which is a compliment akin to "actually not literally worse than Hitler" so, yeah.
3) - so apparently the only thing that actually matters about her pregnancy is how much it'll affect her sexual attractiveness in his eyes, good to know
4) - did he just basically state that the main reason he's taking responsibility for knocking her up is she's cute enough? Because I'm pretty sure he did.
5) - "associate and wife's friend(?) drops by to get off her chest that she fancied you too but she's now finally over it after seeing your domestic setting sorry to bother you, wat do Tazune-sensei?" "Why - strike up a vaguely flirty conversation (right in front of your wife-to-be mind you), causing [visible confusion] in said third wheel, walk her to the station having amiable conversation while basically neglecting wifey dearest wholesale and openly exchange numbers with her! That doesn't come across as God-awfully suspicious and callous at all!"
6) - cap off the above bizarre episode by gratuitously comparing your wifey dearest unflatteringly to the just-departed third wheel, because that's not plain deliberately mean or anything

Now certain amount of the above could be construed as the kind of flippant bullshit banter exchanged between people sufficiently familiar with each other. But the thing is, nobody involved takes it as such for a second.

Look, I appreciate the effort you've gone through here, but you haven't shown me evidence of abuse. You've shown me that Tazune is insensitive, clearly thinks lesser of his fiancee, and the two clearly aren't in love, which is something Maki also picks up on, but nowhere have you shown me that he has emotionally abuses her as seems to be the consensus here. It may very well be revealed in a chapter or two that he does in other instances, or he might begin to but within the five chapters so far he simply hasn't abused her. So, I'm just gonna put an end to this here and say lets agree to disagree because its looking like people want to see me as a villain simply for not jumping to Midori's side despite her own stupidity and selfishness.

They immediately swallow down the POV of the main characters regardless of how shitty they are.

Someone haven't read Citrus thread.

Well, I did before dropping it. Did fans turn on Mei? Because they very much loved her when I was reading it. So much so to the point of hating the new girl, Matsuri. I left around there but I do know how the manga ended.

Calling her an idiot with a cute face isn't abuse. He's an asshole but he's not abusing her. GTFO with this bullshit.

Please. He is absolutely being abusive. Insulting her privately, insulting and embarrassing her publicly, being dismissive of her concerns, etc. are things that hurt her emotionally and breed self doubt in her. It is emotional abuse, whether that's his intention or not.

Oh, please, yourself! He called her an idiot once and he didn't want to have sex with a condom on! These things are not abuse. It was a shitty thing to say, especially in front of a guest, but it is not abusive. You're being sensationalist. The two rushed into a marriage because they got knocked up before either knew each other well enough and now Midori realised that the person she met isn't as sweet as she thought he was on date night and is scared because she feels trapped. As of chapter 5 no abuse has occurred. You're all trying very hard to victimise Midori since its easier that way to sympathise with her if you take the opinion that her partner is just an abuser

This blanket condemnation of everyone in the forum as people with mental problems and shit-swallowers deserves, I think, some sort of reprimand. Is there a moderator in the house?

First of all, I didn't insult anybody. Secondly, I used the general term "people". Third, are you seriously trying to get me banned for saying people on this site don't call out shitty female characters? Seriously? You enjoy an echo-chamber this much?

last edited at Feb 22, 2020 7:03PM

Uh-huh. This astonishingly clueless claim by itself would be cause enough to simply disqualify from the discussion, just so you know.

How arrogant. You didn't even attempt to provide a counter. Just claimed I was so clueless that I wasn't worth your time. Lol.

For the record I was initially willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he was merely tactless and insensitive rather than actively malicious.

And what changed your mind?

He since amply proved himself a two-faced actively abusive cunt so.

He isn't abusive. He's insensitive, possessive, and a dickhead, but he has not abused anybody. No matter how often you say it, it won't make it true. Show me an example or stop saying it.

Quite irrelevant. All people have flaws; but if you're going to be in a relationship and not a total fucking dickbag you owe it to your SO to not constantly and maliciously belittle them for theirs. It's kind of basic human decency to not get into a relationship with someone you scorn just so you can heap abuse on them as you please.

Not at all irrelevant. She is an idiot. That much must be noted considering a major focal point of the story is the mistakes she's made. It's very relevant to establish that she's an idiot. Especially since she clearly learns slowly. He's a dickhead, but she's an idiot. Both are true.

And Tazune outright refused to put on the rubber for wholly selfish reasons,

He didn't ouright refuse anything. He claimed he forgot and wanted to anyway because "its mine". Whether this meant her vag was his or she should be okay with having unprotected sex because she's doing it with him is unclear. Either way, she consented. She acknowledged she could have turned him away but out of fear of him leaving in anger she consented. She's just as much to blame for the unwanted pregnancy as he was. She prioritised companionship over safe sex.

more likely than not because he'd caught on to Midori having too strong dependency issues to reject him (which would also explain why he started shedding his nice-guy mask around that period). And while his willingness to marry her in the aftermath could be construed as "taking responsibility" all evidence implies it had altogether more to do with a golden opportunity to get himself a nice easily manipulated doormat of a wife who's far too insecure to refuse to put up with his shit.

Also known as helluva textbook domestic abuser behaviour.

Headcanons are nice huh? You can just make up whatever you feel and judge a character based on the events that transpire in your head. Once again, we have no POV from Tazune for you to make any calls on why he decided to marry her or how he feels about her outside of the fact that he's insensitive. He already said he doesn't like being lonely. For all you know he's the exact same as Midori, and as far as what we've seen up to now he is.

So hey, remind me of the points where she goes out of her way to actively hurt and humiliate Maki just to stroke her own ego?

She didn't do that but I can show you where she went out of her way to make herself feel better by using Maki's who she knows has very real feelings for her.

Or is that not as valid?

Bullshit. And your entire argument is based on a gross false equivalence.

You spent the last hour and a half proving my point, mate.

Can't believe someone downright defend ashitty asshole husband. What do you need for balming him ? That it he hit her ?

Point out where I defended Tazune... The point of my argument is that Midori is just as shitty as he is and they deserve each other.

Moral abuse is still abuse as far as i'm concerned. He always said she is an idiot and don't listen to what she said. Do you remember they're married and she gonna have a baby ? He clearly don't love her. She may have made a mistake by marrying him but don't fully innocent him on that. He is still an asshole.

Calling her an idiot with a cute face isn't abuse. He's an asshole but he's not abusing her. GTFO with this bullshit.

Yeah cause calling someone an idiot again and again is totally innocent from him.

He called her dumb once. Also, nobody said he was innocent, I called him a shitty person. I merely offered a different look at the scenario because you were all so hellbent on shitting on the character while overlooking the same shitty things Midori was doing. Also, also, she IS dumb.

last edited at Feb 22, 2020 6:06PM

You're finding excuses. How do you know Tazune doesn't have deep rooted problems of his own? Because he didn't get a nice backstory explaining his actions and personality? Midori took advantage of Maki, Tazune took advantage of Midori. They deserve each other.

And you're engaging in blatant victim-blaming to excuse blatant domestic abuse so, yeah. See the thing is that while Tazune might well have a shitty backstory of his own that explains his nasty habits there's nothing that would excuse them, and while the way Midori dropped Maki like an old sock upon graduation sure as shit wasn't nice it's a far cry from the active belittling disdain et al he keeps heaping on his wife-to-be at every opportunity for no other apparent reason than enjoying it.

As far as we can tell from the available information Midori acts, and acted, the way she does and did out of deep-seated abandonement issues. While Tazune seems to be going off a malign need or desire to put down others - or at least his wife, but the way he rubbed it in the face of her old friend sure makes you wonder - to feel better about himself (at best; "for sick kicks" certainly isn't off the books either).

Active malice is an altogether greater moral offense than mere thoughtlessness.

Victim blaming??? The only victim here is Maki! Midori has not been abused in any way! Her fiance calls her an idiot with a cute face but unlike Midori we have had no POV from him to determine if he's doing it out of sheer vitriol or if he's just ignorant to people's feelings. And its not like he's wrong anyway. She's proven that she's just an idiot with a cute face. Midori made her bed to have unprotected sex with a guy who she knew was a dick but she did it anyway just to keep him there! SHE was that same insensitive dick years ago and she's the same now. She knew Maki loved her and was soft enough to welcome her back with open arms that she could cry in about her shitty life and then when it was all over she went back to him. Abandonment issues is no excuse for using people either. Even after hearing Maki whisper to her that she still loved her she said "let me have my happiness". She's a grown ass woman! She knew what she was doing, and if she didn't she's even more selfish!

The people on this website have a serious problem acknowledging problematic female characters. They immediately swallow down the POV of the main characters regardless of how shitty they are.

The difference is that Midori's issues are rooted in major dependency problems and fair bit of emotional damage from childhood, whereas Tazune besides being a two-faced toxic asshole is de facto exploiting them - consciously or not, but I doubt he'd be as abusive towards Midori as he is if he didn't have at least a hunch of why she's willing to just "grin and bear it". (He's quite capable of putting up a "nice guy" front when he wants to after all.)

Being flawed and foolish is one thing; actively abusing such in others for your own gain is a sin of an entirely different magnitude.

You're finding excuses. How do you know Tazune doesn't have deep rooted problems of his own? Because he didn't get a nice backstory explaining his actions and personality? Midori took advantage of Maki, Tazune took advantage of Midori. They deserve each other.

Too much slagging off Tazune alone in these comments. Its like women can do no wrong. Midori's hugely problematic as well. You had unprotected sex! What the fuck were you expecting other than a baby??? Tazune's a scumbag but he was right on the mark that Midori IS just an idiot with a cute face. Besides, she fell in love with this guy just because he kept her from being lonely. With that its difficult to say whether or not she loved our MC at all or if she just loved not being alone and without the baggage of an unwanted pregnancy and being patronised.

I'm sick of these yuri manga with toxic love interests engaged to male antagonists that are then rewarded despite their fuck ups. Maki needs to move on and forget about Midori. She was offered help many times and turned it away to wallow even after hearing Maki says she was in love with her. Enjoy your loveless marriage and your unwanted pregnancy.

Goddamn yo

@majere Great... Now that's all I can see.

The twins don't look alike anymore. One's thicker, one's taller, one has tsurime, one has tareme, and their hair colours are different. In the earlier chapters I don't think even the author could tell them apart when he drew them.

She had a couple lines before. I remember them running in track and she called Qiu Tong weak for her placing. Also had a line the chapter they went on the school trip and Sun Jing snuck onto Qiu Tong's school bus.

Akane's baby Trump hands are killing me over here.

So I hear you don't know about stiff shoulders, foreigners.

I also do not like this resolution. Yes, they are young and will muddle their way through their relationship, but equally because they are young they wouldn't consider establishing boundaries in the first place. In every sense that a teenager would understand, they WERE in something of a relationship. As the older one Shizuka was shown to have understood all along that Mio truly liked her, and just like Kaoru does with everybody who likes her, Shizuka took advantage of it. The resolution shows Mio is far too dependent on Shizuka and their "official" relationship seems to have started off under the pretence that she will always be too milquetoast to hold Shizuka accountable to anything. Regardless of their maturity, we're supposed to feel like we support the relationship, this being a manga aimed at young adults, and I don't see how I could with that in mind. This deserved a good period of separation between them.

That's a huge behind when you scale using her arm and hand. Or maybe she just needs to do some dumbbells.

Bruh wtf

Seems fun. Although, I don't see how one could possibly mistake that obvious woman for a man. Even if we apply the fictional bishounen trope the voice should be an immediate give away. Are there many Het women that are attracted to men that look that feminine?