This is fantastic! If it had breast expansion it would be just about everything I've ever wanted in a hentai doujin. Many thanks to the translators.

The short version is, someone said they didn't consider this "yuri" because the story would not be any different if the main character were a man. I thought that was an interesting point and reminded me of some criticism I'd read elsewhere that I thought would be relevant to discuss in this context. And a bunch of people decided that was somehow an attack on the merits of the series and brought out the torches and pitchforks.

What is with this website and people who have to be right and cannot accept any viewpoints other than their own? "Welcome to internet forums" I guess...

Sorry but that's irrelevant, a character don't need to be relatable

How is it objectively irrelevant that many women find the way female characters are depicted in male-oriented media to be problematic?

Wrong, Kuroko has lot's of real life analogue, because she's not just a serial killer

I wasn't even talking about her killing, but for that matter the most prolific American serial killer had "only" 49 victims; there really isn't an analogue to someone like Kuroko on that front. I was talking about your assertion that her behavior is characteristic of "butch" lesbians. How many women do you know in real life who run around like horny teenage boys trying to sleep with every woman they see, ogling their bodies, molesting them, and spending their free time watching porn? You seem determined to believe that women like her exist - I'm here to tell you, they don't. She's an over-the-top fantasy character in a fictitious world, and should be enjoyed on that level.

I completely disagree, the manga is full of female characters, way more than male and they're more fleshed out too, in my opinion they're all are well written, also

The fact that the manga features largely female characters doesn't have any bearing on whether or not Kuroko is written believably as a woman. But if you think she is, no skin off my back.

Sorry but the story also showed a lot that she's not emotionless, as for being unflappable, that is realistic, a lot of people that have experience with combat, life threatening or stressful situations are capable to be like that,

I present to you:

http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/murcielago_ch18#7

Even people who perform well in high-stress situations (e.g. combat) have to deal with or utilize the effects of stress/adrenaline. A person whose very heartbeat doesn't change flying out the window of a skyscraper is utterly fiction. And those very same people often suffer terribly for the things they have to do and witness (heard of PTSD?)

I think it's natural for the author to humanize Kuroko as he goes along. The readers feel more affection for her and we want good things for her. This story is more Seinfeld ("no hugs, no lessons") than most so I don't think we're going to see her change completely, but I think the attachment/feelings she is developing for Chiyo are new for her. (Despite her incessant, relentless womanizing on the side).

Also, in case some of you didn't notice, the mangaka is a woman, so you can't really use much the argument that they don't know how woman are, since you know, the author is one.

No.

https://www.mangaupdates.com/authors.html?id=11622

but it barely has fanservice,

Fanservice is not synonymous with sex scenes (of which there are still at least one every volume). Kuroko's busty frame falling out of her patent-leather minidress these chapters? That's service too. All the busty schoolgirls talking about their breasts? Service. This: http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/murcielago_ch42#5 Service. But so? I don't want the leopard to change its spots. People who don't want to read a servicey story filled with gory violence shouldn't be reading Murcielago. It's not for them. You don't have to do contortions to try to pretend that this is highbrow entertainment - just accept and enjoy the blunt instrument that it is.

So women can't openly assault other women, act cruel and in general be pretty void of empathy? So just because that is commonly associated with women every single fictional female character has to have those traits or she is just a "man with boobs"? Also you kinda ruined your entire argument mentioning the fact Kuroko is a psycho. So even if she originally had any of those "women's traits" because she was born with them impaired, her behavior makes perfect sense (ignoring the fact she just could be heartless bitch). Also women can't be tail, well build or intimidating? Again we are basing that whole "how should women look/act" on very narrow and specific criteria.

No. Taken independently, any one trait can of course be found in men and women, we're a big rainbow. I never said she couldn't or shouldn't be any of the things that she is. But the more things that stack up away from relatable behaviors/traits for women, the less relevant it becomes outside of sexual characteristics that she is a woman. This isn't an argument I'm making, I'm just referencing a common feminist criticism of entertainment media.

Kuroko is basically a butch lesbian

Kuroko has no real-life analogue. If any of you know someone like Kuroko... um... run?

Cause really guys, those comments sound more and more really sexist, which is funny because Kuroko is not the first lesbian in manga to act like that, although not as extreme because she didn't try to sleep with all the girls she met, Haruka from Sailor Moon was basically like Kuroko, she flirted with a lot of girls, she not only dressed masculine sometimes, but people even thought she was a man sometimes, so the fact that she was Sailor Uranus aside, should we say that if she was a man it would be all the same thing?

"Flirting" is a very generous way of characterizing how Kuroko acts toward women. And of course she's not the first character to act that way - that's why there's a whole body of thought around the ways that women are characterized in male-oriented movies/tv/comics. No one's saying she "is a man," and it has nothing to do with being masculine or butch, it's about the author either not being able to write women very well, or choosing a rather pandering approach to writing a woman. I'm not sure it matters as more than an intellectual exercise here - it's not that she should be a man or that it's bad that she's a woman, just that when you examine it it's not really relevant to the story.

This is a very narrow minded way of looking at things. Basic human emotions and morals (or lack of) are not exclusive to any one group of people. Trying to define a character like Kuroko, who can be a ruthless butcher or a goofy homemaker depending on the page, by some supposed measures of masculinity or femininity is downright comical.

Again, it's not about whether it's bad or good. The author is free to create whatever kind of character he wants, and if in his story he wants to write about a 6'3" I-cup woman who has remorselessly killed hundreds of people, is utterly emotionless and unflappable in every circumstance, and perceives all beautiful women as sex objects to be lusted after and conquered... well, that's his right. Is that character even remotely realistic? No. I don't personally care, I like the story anyway, it is viscerally satisfying to some very base instincts and is a fun change of pace from standard yuri tropes.

last edited at Apr 27, 2016 2:52AM

I guess the person is implying that for something to be of the Yuri genre, it would have to be something that's geared to an audience looking for girl-on-girl related-stuff, meaning the fact that Yuri-stuff is incidental to Murcielago, it shouldn't be considered "Yuri."

I don't really agree with this though, but I guess we all define things differently.

I think that's what the first responder was implying, but not the second. I think the second was referring to the frequent criticism of a particular way of writing female action characters as basically "men with boobs." That is, the author gives them all of the behaviors, vices, strengths, weaknesses, and so on of a male hero, but the form of a sexy woman. Oftentimes she's the token "girl who's as good as the boys" on an otherwise all-male team.

In this case I kinda think the critcism fits - Kuroko lusts after and approaches women sexually in a way that is utterly unrealistic for women to do, and of course has an affinity for causing pain and violence that is also very atypical for women. She behaves in almost every way like a male character in her role would. She's also physically imposing and, of course, by virtue of her pathology, devoid of any of the emotional traits that are often associated with female characters.

But of course, under no circumstances can you pretend this story is striving for anything like realism. Did the Kuroko character have to be a woman? No. Would anything really have changed if she were a man? Other than the Virginal Rose arc, no. Does it matter? Not especially. The artist wanted to draw lesbian sex, and that's just fine with me. :)

A "psychopath?" Really?

Here is every chapter she has appeared in:

http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/virgins_empire_ch42
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/virgins_empire_ch46
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/virgins_empire_ch51
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/virgins_empire_ch52
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/virgins_empire_ch61
http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/virgins_empire_ch68

I defy you to show me one example of psychopathic behavior anywhere in there. The not eating, regardless of whether it's entirely to manipulate the girl who dumped her or whether it's a teenage emo "I just can't go on with this pain" reaction to getting dumped or some combo of the two is textbook teenage overreaction. Flirting with people that you don't want to have a relationship is entirely natural for some people.

She's playing dirty pool with Shizuka, sure, because she thinks the force of her charm alone will win her back. That doesn't make her a psycho, it make her at most overconfident. You are reading WAY too much into a few pages in a manga that is supposed to be about sexy girls doing sexy things. You're supposed to think that her artsy nature and dominant presence are sexy and a good foil to the innocent and cheery kohai, not that she is going to go yandere on everyone. It's like you're not even reading the same story.

Sigh. I'm not trying absolve anyone of anything. I just think she's a cool character with some interesting complexity and not the devil incarnate. Substance expressed it well a couple posts back. But yeah, this has exhausted its course as a conversation for sure.

A) Aggressively pursue someone who broke up with you for cheating while expressing no contrition whatsoever and despite the fact that they are in a relationship and they have made it quite clear they don't want to get together with you

I think everyone is forgetting the ages of the girls involved here. They were in middle school when they were going out. "Cheating" at that age constitutes what - kissing someone else? Sure, it's emotionally impactful, especially during those hormonal years, to feel "betrayed" by the person you like. But she's not a homewrecker, she's a kid who is very immature. Also, Shizuka is not in a relationship. The two of them like each other clearly, but since the early unrealistic chapters (where they're taking their shirts off in school) they haven't done more than flirt and hold hands. That doesn't make you "taken."

B) Touch that person in sexual ways with no respect for their boundaries or consent

You are absolutely right here. In real life this would be absolutely unacceptable. This is ecchi manga world, though, where unfortunately "no" usually means "yes." That is its own set of issues, one that you just end up kind of ignoring if you like adult manga but aren't into nonconsent. I don't feel the groping was drawn because it was particularly in character or realistic, I think it was there for service value. As OnT has gone on the service factor has gone way down, but every so often Kishi decides he has to spice up a chapter to keep the fanboys happy or whatever.

C) While at the same time taking advantage of the emotional vulnerability of a different girl solely for the sake of stroking your own ego

I don't think she's taking advantage of Mayu. Mayu is a straight girl who was hurting because she was broken up with and Kaoru offered to be her friend. Mayu admires her in the standard crushing-on-a-cool-sempai way.

PLG - You're just trying to pick a fight at this point. You are exaggerating everything I said and then belittling my communication skills, so I'm done with this. I have already made the points I wanted to make, which was purely and simply that I don't think Kaoru is being given a fair shake. You are taking this FAR into the weeds now.

Majere - I am sorry if you found what I said insulting. I did not mean it that way, as I indicate above. Your comment just seemed very idealistic and naive to the ways all people are fallible.

You are still dealing with absolutes that are not found in what I actually wrote. I never said "everyone always," I said that it does happen. And when it does happen, it is possible for a reasonable person to decide that the relationship is salvageable or more valuable than the broken trust, and give things another shot.

Cheating is also not the only way to hurt someone - I seriously doubt anyone in a long term relationship has never hurt their partner in some way, or been on the cusp of a decision of whether to stay or go over their differences. Saying something cruel in an argument, doing something out of spite, being neglectful of something important to them, to name some examples. There is no such thing as two people who are perfectly compatible. To paraphrase my wife, "falling in love is about finding someone whose bullshit you can tolerate, who can tolerate your bullshit." Everybody has some. Can the pair see all of each other and still make it work? That's what makes it last.

The way I began my original response to Majere had nothing to do with condescension - being young and naive is not to be less than anyone. It was my perception of the place someone is likely to be coming from when they say something like the line I quoted.

That line that Kaoru says certainly is not a point in her favor. But remember that the things people SAY are not always the truth or what they truly feel. She may actually be an open book about this and really be a narcissist. Or it could be a story she tells herself and now is telling Shizuka to romanticise and justify her prior behavior to smooth out that roadblock. She may think (obviously wrongly) that if she humbles herself and isn't a cool and collected goddess she's unlovable.

All it is is that I think she is a more complex character than the people who are all "Nooo~ Shizuka x kohai 4 ever!!!" are entertaining. Her introductory chapter frames her and Shizuka's current relationship on very friendly terms and she is capable of being very kind and supportive to the underclassmen. I also have the benefit of having read her chapters in vol. 6, which I won't spoil here.

If I had to personally speculate on where Kaoru is coming from, I would say, based on the Cleopatra story she tells Mayu, after the breakup she decided she would double down on her ability to charm every girl around her, to be beloved but never love so she couldn't be hurt again. She did not, however, find that as fulfilling as she hoped, and as time has gone on has decided to see if the door is still open a crack for a reunion with the love that she ruined, that she clearly misses. I don't think she's thought about the terms of that reunion much, but has to know on some level that giving up her harem of adorees would be part of the deal, and maybe sees that as a bargaining chip. In reality she's not half as mature as she thinks she is (no teenager is), nor is this love half as important as she thinks it is (really, as much as we d'aww over these pairings, how many people really should be life partners with their crush from when they were 16?)

last edited at Apr 22, 2016 12:38AM

Purple Library Guy, I have no idea what you're talking about. At no time did I say anything about angst, brooding, or cynicism at all. Majere expressed a belief that because Kaoru hurt Shizuka in the past that she is branded a cheater and has forfeited all right to try to re-establish a relationship. To wit, "you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish." And my point was, in the grown-up world, people hurt each other, people do fucked up stuff. If messing up badly denied people the "right" to mend fences, the way a lot of people with starry-eyed views of love and romance believe (I was in that boat myself once, as a teenager), no relationship would last.

You may feel that her stripes haven't changed and that Shizuka should not fall for it, and that's ok. I'm not saying they should or should not be together. It's an intriguing storyline that I am interested to see play out. I just feel like a lot of the kneejerk hate for Kaoru is coming from an uninformed place.

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 7:19PM

So you admit that she's literally just toying with Mayu for her own amusement and you're still trying to defend her behaviour as totally acceptable? If you hurt someone so badly that they break up with you you do NOT get to do this to them. It is not okay, it is not fair, and it is incredibly cruel and selfish. I don't root for cheaters. You don't get to have someone back after you spent your entire relationship with them showing how much you value your own immediate gratification above their emotional well being.

I'm not sure how old you are, but based on this comment I'm going to guess you are fairly young and naive about the way people and relationships work. People, especially teenagers, make mistakes, they change, and especially after something like a significant breakup may find their values, wants, and needs no longer match their lifestyle. I have had many friends who got back together after a breakup due to mutually re-evaluating their priorities and behavior. "Don't know what you've got 'till it's gone," as they say.

I'm not sure why you think "get to do" and "fair" enter into this. She doesn't automatically get anything, and she's not prevented from doing anything. If she still wants Shizuka she's free to pursue her as she sees fit. That doesn't mean Shizuka has to accept her advances or return her feelings. There's no "one strike" rule in relationships; if there were, pretty much every relationship ever would be over before it began.

Kaoru isn't toying with Mayu in any malicious way. She's just flirting, because she likes the control and the admiration. Some people like to flirt. She's not doing anything different than any other "ultra-cool upperclassman" character, dealing with campus celebrity and making the underclassmen feel good. Also, Mayu is straight. It's strictly akogare with her, as far as we've seen.

I'm not saying you have to "root for" her. Like whichever pairing you want! I was just expressing an opinion that I think people aren't giving Kaoru a fair shake because they are invested in the established Shizuka/Mio pair, whereas if the story were told differently - i.e. starting with the Shizuka/Kaoru relationship and then breakup, some might feel different.

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 10:51AM

I feel like most of you are biased about Kaoru because you got invested in the Shizuka/Mio pairing from all the earlier chapters with just them. Yes, she is absolutely abusing her effortless charm and BWOC status to try to seduce Shizuka again, but why not? She knows that the woman she loves got away due to her selfishness and feels (right or wrong) that a direct push past Shizuka's barriers is the way to get her back. In her mind Mio (Ichinose, The Kohai, whatever) is just a distraction, a plaything, a little girl who's not playing in the big leagues with them.

Now, it's pretty clear we're supposed to read deeper feelings than that for Mio on Shizuka's part, but I feel like in a different context you'd be rooting for Kaoru. Shizuka and Mio aren't married or even dating, and Kaoru wants her woman back. :3

(I mean, we know that won't happen, because this manga doesn't deal in that deep of drama if the younger girl is spurned... but then again, Kaoru will bring the drama herself if she's ultimately totally rejected, and there's no one else on the horizon for her - I don't think she'd seriously consider a relationship with Mayu or any younger girl, she just likes to exercise her powers on them)

(And yes, I think the Kaoru character is fantastic - she is bringing a lot to the table here. Although my favorite pair is Mari and Yuu and my favorite character is Miyoshi. :D)

last edited at Apr 21, 2016 1:30AM

I share the sentiments of others that found Kuroko's action's in School Destruction to have been vile enough to damage my "connection" to her (as well as, IMO, out of character for her). I had to think for a bit on why that is, given the way this manga works and what we know about her. Here's how I explain it.

Up until that point, we never saw Kuroko take deliberate (as opposed to negligent) action to murder someone who wasn't a serious direct threat to her life or safety. Basically, the "big bad" of each arc, with outsized superpowers who absolutely was attempting to kill her at the same time. Under no circumstances can you say that three schoolgirls with baseball bats posed any kind of threat to Kuroko. Her role, by the "rules" of the story, is to execute those that the state is unprepared and unable to handle. No matter how awful the delinquent girls were, as terrible as what they did to Minako was, the state is capable of dealing with normal human battery and sexual abuse.

Even if she wished to mete out some measure of vigilante justice, it's hard to argue that brutal execution is the fit punishment for that crime. And, aside from the umbrella violation which was gross and unnecessary, she also is a participant in the rape of Fuuri by Minako. Even if Murcielago is an "eye for an eye" world, as someone else said, there is a particular resonance behind sexual violation that is not generally there for people watching cartoonishly gory violence. It really damages my ability to sympathize with or support Kuroko (choosing my words carefully here, because, as noted, she is not a hero or a good person even if she can behave in good ways and is the protagonist).

The fact that Kuroko's backstory is that she killed 715 people on her way to death row is largely irrelevant - it's a meaningless number thrown out to aid us in understanding early on that "this is a bad woman." We relate to the character's actions that we see, as they unfold, not to that number. A lot of the aspects of this manga are ridiculously exaggerated, to enjoy it you just have to accept that here it's possible for someone to be fifteen feet tall or a butter knife can cut bone or a 9-year-old girl can leap in the air and execute a man on a moving rollercoaster. It's why as problematic as I find Rinko and that story to be, I can grudgingly accept it by this manga's standards. I have a much harder time with the School Destruction happenings.

last edited at Apr 19, 2016 9:10PM

Much as I wish MahiMahi were actual twins (and much as I think Kishi-sensei wants the readers to basically view them that way while avoiding the letter of whatever editorial or other pressures it might have caused) the character summary page from vol. 6 calls them "擬似双子," which means "pseudo-twins."

Since there seems to be some question on it, that page also lists the class years for all the characters:

1st Years:
Mahiro
Mahiru
Yuu
Mari
Nao
Mayu　(Kaoru's kohai toy)
Mio (Ichinose)
Mariri
Midori (new character later in vol. 5)

2nd Years:
Ai
Chie
Michiru
Airi
Ayano
Miyoshi
Honoka
Alicia
Onoda (she isn't given a first name)
Yumimi
Mayuyu

3rd Years:
Kaoru
Shizuka
Nononon

last edited at Apr 18, 2016 11:26PM